A thousand fewer paths to root
Posted by dangelosaurus 2 hours ago
Comments
Comment by Plasmoid 1 hour ago
Is the kernel simply too complex to reason about? Is it an underlying flaw in the security model or language implementation?
Should we assume that all software is more compromised than the kernel?
Comment by pianopatrick 12 minutes ago
Speed requires a lot of code in the kernel, where that code can run fast.
There are kernels that do not have a thousand privilege escalation exploits. These kernels are smaller and much easier to check for bugs. But those kernels are significantly slower.
For many use cases, slower is not a problem. But for the large corporations who fund a lot of Linux development and use Linux in large data centers, every 1% slower can literally be millions of dollars worth of additional servers that are required.
OpenBSD shows that you can have a Unix security model without a thousand privilege escalation exploits. But OpenBSD is like 10% slower. So corporations won't use it because it would cost millions of dollars more per year and some of their software requires access that OpenBSD does not grant precisely because that access leads to security exploits (i.e. io_uring, eBPF etc. etc.)
You could also use like seL4, but that's slow too
So that's why. It's a business tradeoff between cost of servers vs cost of getting hacked, and cost of servers wins.
Comment by mikestylz 1 hour ago
Absolutely, the front door has always been unlocked. We were previously protected by the economics of exploit detection favoring the developers, but now we have entered a new world.
The issues arise almost everywhere we look. It's frustrating because the user experience in edge systems has barely changed in the last fifteen years. We could have rode the advances in semiconductor manufacturing to embed more layers of protection such as CHERI while slightly slowing down the rate of performance improvements. Instead we have only marginally upgraded security and largely added features which the users scarcely notice.
I am hopeful about the long term prospects of formal verification, but having humans reviewing the proof statements and confirming they match our desired properties will take many years. Meanwhile, AI assisted hacking is an urgent issue. So we will have to delegate implementation, proof specification, and proof development to the AIs in the short term. Maybe that goes well, but who knows. Interesting times.
Comment by asveikau 1 hour ago
Comment by chrismarlow9 43 minutes ago
Comment by bombcar 1 hour ago
Comment by hibikir 7 minutes ago
Comment by tptacek 45 minutes ago
Comment by Muromec 29 minutes ago
There is nothing magical about kernel. Look at the code anywhere and it has bugs, lots of them.
Security bugs are just bugs. More often than not they are silently there and don't prevent you from using the software and you can't react and fix them because of that.
Give it time and they accumulate
Comment by NooneAtAll5 39 minutes ago
it's been rule of thumb basically forever that there is 1 bug per ~10KLOC for any project
linux kernel is millions of lines, so thousands of bugs being hidden there is about on point
(tho obviously far smaller serious escalation ones, obviously, but you're exaggerating as well)
Comment by p-e-w 1 hour ago
Comment by wahern 56 minutes ago
Comment by hoppp 1 hour ago
Comment by ChickeNES 1 hour ago
Comment by 0xbadcafebee 1 hour ago
Comment by icepush 59 minutes ago
Is it bulletproof? Definitely! But you need the genius of Albert Einstein as well as the patience of Mother Theresa to actually use it in production.
Comment by Muromec 25 minutes ago
It's the one security practice that actuuuualy works
Comment by wahern 48 minutes ago
Comment by cyberax 59 minutes ago
But it also got its share of use-after-free and OOB access vulnerabilities this year: https://feedly.com/cve/vendors/openbsd
Comment by esseph 59 minutes ago
First of all... Do you really believe that to be true?
Comment by AnimalMuppet 1 hour ago
Now, I don't know how many of those bugs were privilege escalations, or could be leveraged to be. I'm not sure that people tried to exploit in the same way back then (or, if they did, if they said anything publicly about the results). Still, even if the majority of those bugs were not exploitable, OSes were much smaller then.
So that's my conclusion of how we got here: We've always been here.
Comment by esseph 58 minutes ago
Comment by antonvs 1 hour ago
We developed AIs that can find them.
Comment by spartanatreyu 59 minutes ago
> > We developed AIs that can find them.
We could already find them before AI.
We already knew they were there, and we already knew how to prevent them in the first place.
See previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49705794
Comment by esseph 58 minutes ago
Not at this speed and cost.
Comment by spartanatreyu 7 minutes ago
I'd argue that the resources (i.e. time, money and effort) needed to create the tooling that would have prevented all of these issues would have been orders of magnitude less than the resources that have gone into "AI".
Comment by est31 1 hour ago
Comment by anonymous908213 39 minutes ago
Oh, you strongly recommend rewriting tens of millions of lines of code? Why don't you do it yourself? Just a prompt away, right?
Comment by jkelleyrtp 28 minutes ago
Comment by Muromec 27 minutes ago
Comment by shoobiedoo 11 minutes ago
Comment by ventedmouse 25 minutes ago
Comment by dangelosaurus 2 hours ago
And we're hiring! https://openai.com/careers/search/?q=cyber
Comment by BoppreH 1 hour ago
I understand this work was based on a dated snapshot. Will there be any continuous effort, scanning new PRs as they land, to prevent new weaknesses from being added?
Comment by ky1ebot1337 1 hour ago
Comment by konaraddi 1 hour ago
E.g., 948 results is a high number to review in a timely manner unless your team is very large or spending several months combing through the results
EDIT: nvm i shouldve kept reading, answered
> At this scale, manually investigating every report is impractical for our research team. We therefore focused on validating findings that a) were reachable by a low-privileged user, b) required no special capabilities, and c) produced measurable evidence of memory corruption.
Comment by ahsillyme 1 hour ago
Comment by esseph 54 minutes ago
Multiply that behavior times the number of commercial and mobile and b2b apps over 50+ years, and that's where we are.
There will likely be many more leaks, and hacks, and outages. And then in trying to be proactive to fix old systems, that will cause new proactive outages, and then eventually many things will be better.
But, it's going to take a lot of time and investment, and a lot of (majority) of currently unsupported devices will have to be complete replaced / scrapped / ewaste. On the scale of Nation-State initiatives.
This is across all operating systems, firmware, software and devices of all kinds, etc.
LLMs to security are like a bomb went off. We still have to wait for things to fall over before the dust will even clear enough to see what we have to work with.
Comment by emmelaich 50 minutes ago
Comment by basilikum 57 minutes ago
The article says "The target virtual machines ran a stock desktop operating system". Are the vulns in the kernel specifically or does this include software running as root?
Comment by ky1ebot1337 46 minutes ago
Comment by farisght 1 hour ago
A system that admits THOUSANDS of such vulnerabilities is certainly flawed in several fundamental aspects
Comment by jethro_tell 1 hour ago
Comment by esseph 12 minutes ago
So you have to chunk it down to workable pieces over time, and then if you collect enough data of that process you can look at higher level stats.
You're also talking about hundreds of thousands (millions?) of individual contributors to the Linux kernel over 30+ yr. That process is likely to take years.
Same for every other existing piece of software, btw.
Comment by shalom1112 3 minutes ago
Comment by IcyWindows 20 minutes ago
ACLs, Appcontainers with capabilities, etc have been something in the OS for more than a decade.
Comment by jasonjayr 19 minutes ago
Comment by nas 1 hour ago
Comment by getcrunk 1 hour ago
*buries head in sand*
*cries*
Comment by kccqzy 42 minutes ago
Comment by rubinlinux 1 hour ago
Comment by basilikum 1 hour ago
Comment by zahlman 1 hour ago
Imagine if open-source organizations other than the Linux Foundation (and Mozilla I guess) could throw $1.2M of API-rate LLM usage at security.
Comment by tamimio 1 hour ago
Comment by hoppp 1 hour ago