U.S. workers took home their smallest share of capital since at least 1947
Posted by qlte 9 hours ago
Comments
Comment by _heimdall 9 hours ago
If we don't spend the next few decades skating by while the currency is debased under our noses, I assume its because there's a much more severe and tragic response.
Comment by Tryk 9 hours ago
https://www.statista.com/statistics/222127/quarterly-corpora...
Comment by lossolo 8 hours ago
Comment by majormajor 8 hours ago
Comment by xyzzy123 8 hours ago
Like in 1947 a factory owner's profits would show up as high income. Today they wouldn't (money is in share prices and complex financial arrangements / borrowing). The high marginal rates hit the chief engineer instead, who actually works for a living.
Comment by majormajor 7 hours ago
But it's also disingenuous to claim that none of today's approaches would show up as high income. A lot of old money would be protected still, a lot of new-money would be hit.
Isn't it telling that there was so much massive development of American industry in the post-WWII era and yet there weren't any Musks or Bezos or Gates? A country that had minted tycoons like Getty and Rockefeller and Carnegie stopped for a while. A guy like Howard Hughes was involved in several areas of development but didn't touch the guys who came before him or after him overall...
Comment by AnthonyMouse 5 hours ago
This is a common trope, but it ignores that at the time the tax code had loopholes that could smuggle a freight train full of gold bars. Instead of lower marginal rates, people were taking their real estate and personal vehicles and everything else as tax deductions, and then weren't paying the high marginal rates to begin with. The lowering of marginal rates came with the closing of most of those loopholes, which is why the change had no real effect on federal receipts as a percent of GDP, which has been in the same range since the end of WWII (and was much lower before it):
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
The thing that actually changed is that markets have consolidated a lot more than they were in the mid 20th century, and we have significantly more regulatory capture where e.g. corporations lobby to make their services required by law or to impede or prohibit new entrants to the market. Then consumers/workers have to pay more for those things while receiving nothing of value in return. Corporations take more money and it comes from labor.
Increasing the tax rate doesn't fix that because you'd still have workers paying the high prices to corporations even if the government subsequently took more of the money.
What happens if you have to buy a product from a monopolist so they currently take your last $100, and then the government comes and says they have to pay 80% of it in tax? Best case the government gives the money directly to you, but then there is still a monopoly, so they just raise the price by the amount it takes to extract all of your money again. Worst case, the money doesn't go to you, it goes to some cronies who will now be using it to lobby to increase the amount you pay, and have just demonstrated that they're more politically connected than the original corporations.
To actually fix it you have to get back to competitive markets, efficiency and low barriers to entry.
Comment by cool_dude85 9 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
Its a bit like austerity, but instead of taking a share of everyone's wealth they just make all of our stored wealth worse less. They do that by inflating asset prices much faster than wages can keep up, meaning those large corporations at the top get rich while the average person falls further and further behind.
Comment by odyssey7 8 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
Comment by 8note 6 hours ago
i dont understand. the economy is the royal we doing things. the economy doesnt experience time if we arent doing thongs to ourselves. this isnt a distinction with a difference
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
This is what I was replying to. At least to me, saying the economy did something on its own takes the agency and responsibility off of us. My point was that the economy is just backward looking analysis of how money changes hands, it does nothing by itself and when things change its the result of us making decisions.
Comment by motbus3 9 hours ago
Comment by rusticpenn 43 minutes ago
Comment by fasterik 9 hours ago
Comment by fasterik 9 hours ago
Comment by qlte 8 hours ago
It's depressing to look at the before/after federal deficit estimates over the last two decades without the Bush tax cuts, even before taking out the Trump 1 tax cuts (and future projections from the recent Trump 2 cuts in the BBB). Just a huge unforced error that was completely foreseeable each time.
Contrary to public perception and PR, the "party of fiscal responsibility" has consistently been a disaster for controlling the deficit.
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
The list goes on and on. They argue over where new debt should be spent, who to bomb, or what new powers the government should claim. What we don't see is a debate over government overreach, balanced budgets, or even whether we should even be in a war with Iran.
Comment by majormajor 8 hours ago
If you can't be honest that some folks out there are, in fact, pushing much worse agendas than others... then how do you hope to convince anyone to evaluate if anyone else is gonna actually do better than either? You can't easily have those critical thinking skills without noticing the differences in the two current parties...
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
Comment by majormajor 8 hours ago
But how can you conclude that if you don't have those numbers to give me?
Switching gears to externalities seems like a bit of a dodge unless you are super confident that those externalities are more significant than the bad things you predict happening in the future due to the debt.
Don't you need to look at the numbers to justify that claim? Maybe one party has added 30T and another has added 5T to the debt since Carter. Maybe one has added 20T and the other added 18T. Those numbers would demand VERY different responses.
But saying "it's not one party" seems to assume a particular set of numbers. What are they?
Comment by _heimdall 7 hours ago
I think we even agree that one party will outspend the other. You're ignoring my entire point that running a deficit is the problem and both parties are guilty of doing it and both parties continue to push for even more spending on policies they happen to agree with.
Comment by majormajor 7 hours ago
"I think we even agree that one party will outspend the other."
I'd rephrase it to out-deficit the other because you could spend more AND bring in more revenue and improve the situation. If we do that, then yes, that's certainly my hunch, but I didn't pull any numbers. Maybe the covid-era timing of Trump-vs-Biden plays out wildly different, maybe some of the Obama-era stuff cost more than I'm recalling. Seems necessary to know to know if it's one party is MUCH better than the other or just one party is a bit better than the other.
>You're ignoring my entire point that running a deficit is the problem and both parties are guilty of doing it and both parties continue to push for even more spending on policies they happen to agree with.
My reason for asking for the data is that the best action to take depends on the magnitudes. If one party is dramatically better than the other then the most practical way of fixing your problem is likely to be do everything you can to get that party more power AND work to shift it into the positive vs try to burn both parties down.
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
I said its not a one party problem and then went on to very clearly explain that both parties overspend our income and run deficits. Are you refuting that? No exact stats are needed there because its common knowledge that we haven't run a balanced budget since Clinton was in office.
You seem to be arguing with a point that I never said. I didn't claim which party had spent more, for that I would have to double check the numbers and adjust for inflation.
Comment by imtringued 1 hour ago
Comment by fasterik 7 hours ago
Bush: +$4.9T Obama: +$9.3T Trump 1: +$7.8T Biden: +$8.5T Trump 2: +$4.4T
I don't think there's much point in quibbling over which party has added more to the national debt. The point is that both parties have been irresponsible in different ways, and neither supports the policies necessary to balance the budget: tax increases and cuts to entitlements.
Comment by majormajor 7 hours ago
That presentation does support their claim that both parties need to get back to basics on that matter.
Though now that I'm a bit more invested, looking at deficit delta by year for each of those tells a bit more.
Bush's went up then started to fall until 2008. Obama inherited that mess and he+his Congress spent to get out of it then made it shrink continually until a bump back up in 2016. Trump increased the deficit every single year (and enormously so in 2020, another disaster response incident). It shrank back under Biden in 2021 and 2022 then ticked back up, Trumps' now got it trending back up again after a tiny decrease in 2025.
The thing that changes with that view is that Trump appears to be the big outlier here, who's never really managed to bring it down at all or even try. And there's a fun macro-trend of both of those Democrats only getting elected into shits-on-fire circumstances. Clinton didn't have the problem, maybe that's why he did better.
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
Your attempts here to deflect all spending from the president in office to the party you disagree with is also a bit too obvious. You had no counter argument to my actual point and were instead fishing for me to provide exactly those numbers so you could do exactly this deflection.
Given that you wanted so badly for me to look up numbers, I'd love to hear you justify that running deficits is not a problem of only one party.
Comment by bor3dnrd 5 hours ago
How have you not seen any of those items discussed? It's all I see.
What I don't see is why my fucking neighbors themselves are more than a vote. Having worked with you all for decades now, I don't find any of you any smarter or fucking competent to be a org leader; what have we done but bitch about what web framework and cloud backend to use and stupid valuations should we run up?
It's all ultimately a huge waste since we can't be sure the meteor doesn't hit Earth after we die; we're all just fucking winging it
My age peers 45-50 are just the next Boomers; overly verbose nitwits jerking off whatever literacy they acquired through education. It's cheesy as fuck stupid primates grasping at straws and throwing emotional poop, arbitrary social fiefdom erecting as a means to engage in gentle math based eugenics of who earned a job on an office gig roster.
Fingers crossed everyone loses. Cause if this is all advanced society is capable of launch the nukes.
Comment by _heimdall 5 hours ago
Congress hasn't meaningfully acted on the war in Iran. They are the only ones with the power to declare war and emergency powers are clear. They also own the budget and decided to pay for the war after the fact. Yes the Republicans control both houses right now do that doesn't help, but unless I'm wildly mistaken that spending vote was jot a party line vote.
Comment by insane_dreamer 4 hours ago
The main wars fought in the past 40 years have all been GOP initiated: Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran. This have dwarfed the military operations initiated by Dems.
Comment by bigstrat2003 1 hour ago
Comment by bdhe 8 hours ago
The Democrats have attempted to pass several anti-gerrymandering bills. One in the Senate in 2024, one in the House in 2021. Both stonewalled by Republicans.
The Republican SCOTUS appointees allowed partisan gerrymandering, the Democratic ones were in the dissent.
California's prop 50 was IN RESPONSE to an unprecedented mid-term gerrymandering effort by Texas at the behest of Trump.
I just picked one example, but I could easily write similar responses that show very stark differences between the parties when it comes to wars, stacking the court, war with Iran, and more.
Comment by _heimdall 7 hours ago
The difference in many case was that legal challenges in blue stated tended to stop the gerrymandering where courts in red states tended not to. The end result is different, the political intent was not.
Comment by _DeadFred_ 6 hours ago
Comment by bigstrat2003 1 hour ago
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
I can't include every detail in such a format, but its worth noting that I did clearly call out the Republicans doing it first. Its not like I was saying "democrat gerrymander" out of context there.
Comment by AnthonyMouse 3 hours ago
This is a misunderstanding of how "tax cuts" work under the US income tax. Federal receipts as a percent of GDP:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
Notice the lack of "tax cuts". GDP goes up, taxes go up by exactly the same amount. The number from the most recent year is basically the same as the number from 50 years prior in 1975. Ratio hasn't changed meaningfully since the end of WWII. But Congress somehow keeps passing "tax cuts", so how does that work?
It's because the tax cuts are fake. They set the tax brackets in dollars rather than percentiles, but the tax rates are in percentages, so that's not a stable ratio. In 1995 the median household income was $34,080, now it's $87,460. If they left the tax brackets the same, it would shove the middle class into the tax brackets meant for the rich. De facto middle class tax hike whenever they do nothing.
Naturally Congress loves this, because every few years they get to pass a bill re-adjusting the numbers to keep the true tax rate the same while calling it a "tax cut", and thereby get to claim credit for something people want while not really changing anything. Which is their absolute favorite thing, and why they never fix it by setting the tax brackets in percentiles.
Comment by Teever 8 hours ago
At then end of the day the way things are in America is a reflection of what the American people want their country to be.
People like to make the argument that Americans would stand up and sort this problem out, but the country is just so big, and the average American just doesn't have enough money to do something, and people are spread far and wide and that there's just no way for the to come together to decisively end these problems but it's just excuses. People by and large are content with the status quo. This is just what they want.
Precarious state of health care access and incomprehensibly opaque costs? That's a choice.
An ever escalating police state that has reached new peaks of immigration police and pulling random people off the street and a national guard perpetually patrolling cities? That's a choice.
Forever wars with no discernible objective or end point in the Middle East? That's a choice.
consolidation of media and economic control into a smaller and smaller group of people? That's a choice.
All of this is a choice that Americans collectively continue to make. And my prediction is that they'll continue to keep making these (imho) poor choices.
Comment by Tanoc 8 hours ago
The American people don't actually want this. They don't vote for any of these policies. They actively vote and protest against them. But there's no true mechanism available to the public for ousting elected or appointed officials outside of scheduled times. Recalls have no enforcement. Impeachments have no enforcement! When you know you've got a protected period to wreak havoc in, you do it without worry. Especially if you're doing that in service of people who have broken the systems so they cannot be pried out of their positions, and who will pay you handsomely for bloodying your hands during that two or six year stint.
The public just has to hope whoever they're voting for isn't lying to them, because if that representative is then there's nothing the public can do to punish them in time.
Comment by Teever 6 hours ago
If the answer to that question is simply "the same thing they've done for the past few decades" then the reasonable conclusion to draw is again -- that the American people are collectively fine with the state of their country and the growing inequality and shrinking democratic power that the individual American has.
There are a myriad of responses that the American people could have to this growing problem, that range from legal to illegal, from scrupulous to unscrupulous but the American people collectively choose the path of least resistance, they choose the status quo.
America looked at Jan 6th and collectively decided that doing nothing was the best course of action. No further response was needed. Just clean the riff-raff out of the capitol and get back to business as usual.
If you're an American look around and remember that what you see as good as it gets, and that it's all downhill from here because that's what everyone wants.
Comment by Tanoc 5 hours ago
Most of the government's positions since the 1960s have been a result of those thinktanks crafting policy designed to make the public feel disconnected from the protests of the past. Schools don't teach about the socialist groundswell of the 1930s, or of things like the Battle Of Blair Mountain or the Little Steel Strike. They teach about the World War II production lines and how Nazi Germany came to be instead. Martin Luther King Jr. Day was created to defang the man's own political teachings from the later 1960s in favour of his inoffensive "I have a dream" speech that was made before he learned of how the CIA had been targeting the black power movement. Juneteenth was an absolutely blatant placation attempt following the Black Lives Matter protests, and one that nobody it was supposed to be for accepted. But all of these token gestures create an illusion that progress is being made. It makes people think the government is solely responsible for solving problems, rather than the government being responsible for codifying the solutions that people themselves come up with. Many people born after 1980 have been trained to think this way their entire lives by small groups that require a stable environment for capital rather than a healthy environment for the public. To realize it is wrong and destroy one of the foundations of your understanding of the world is a difficult thing to do. And more importantly it's an expensive thing to do. Americans are convinced that everything has to have monetary value and that the destruction of monetary value is the destruction of public good. It's another one of those foundations.
I tell people all the time to actually do things. I do things in front of them. Their immediate response is always "You'll get arrested! What about your family?!" They don't understand the reasoning behind choosing minor immediate risk over guaranteed eventual harm. And with the rampant surveillance systems and government overreach happening, they're being convinced that the minor immediate risk is a major immediate guarantee of harm. The only other response is "What's the point?" They've been so beaten down by automated systems destroying their sense of agency that they feel nothing they do matters. You can't argue with voice mailbox. It has nothing to do with them wanting it or disregarding it, and it has everything to do with the psychology of fear. Fear of loss, fear of harm, fear of authority. None of it's rational. None of it's true personal choice. All of it is systemic. When you're convinced only you have agency you find it too monumental a task to create a system of your own to fight back.
It sucks. I hate it here.
Comment by swed420 8 hours ago
Democracy is illusory.
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
Comment by fasterik 8 hours ago
In my opinion, we don't have a democracy problem, we have an education problem. Too many voters support policies that sound nice on paper but are disastrous when put into practice.
Comment by _heimdall 7 hours ago
Comment by jancsika 6 hours ago
Nobody wants "experts" at any level of government.
The question that reveals your actual politics: where do want experts? I want them on staff or retainer, quickly accessible to representatives at every level of government.
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
Did you not see how the entire pandemic response played out? There are still YouTube videos of a huge swath of politicians and media outlets telling people not to do their own research and to just listen to those in charge of the relevant federal agencies.
Comment by fasterik 7 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
I don't think many people even know what liberalism means today. It gets treated like a synonym for progressivism, which itself is poorly defined and used as a synonym for a DNC voter.
Comment by AnimalMuppet 7 hours ago
Comment by majormajor 8 hours ago
Health access, for instance, improved as a result of one set of votes. Lifetime maxes are gone. There is improved access to non-employee plans.
It didn't stop inflation of health plan costs or medical treatment in general. One might think that means its worth voting for people pledging to make further large-scale changes to address those things.
And meanwhile, the assholes have been campaigning on the opposite for more than a decade: try to make the access worse again by trying rhetorical tricks to say that the one caused vs failed to fix the other. That'll let some rich people get even richer.
That's a real difference for many millions of people.
Neither party is perfect. Welcome to adulthood. Shitty compromises are generally all you get.
By all means, work on structural things to encourage more parties to exist and flourish.
Just also pay attention to the active battles.
Comment by swed420 7 hours ago
Nobody here is suggesting this.
Comment by _DeadFred_ 6 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
I personally see our two parties today and fighting for the same principles while landing on different specific policies. That doesn't mean I don't vote.
Comment by melbournesky 8 hours ago
Comment by fasterik 8 hours ago
Comment by lotsofpulp 8 hours ago
Comment by majormajor 8 hours ago
But Clinton was a bit of a correction—not perfect by any means—to Reagan, who lit a bunch of gasoline on the "don't tax and DO spend" fire. Too bad even Reagan would look like some sort of TDS cuck RINO to the current conservatives...
Comment by lotsofpulp 8 hours ago
Comment by majormajor 7 hours ago
So if one guy figures out some rhetorical tricks to convince an entire generation that ACTUALLY tax cuts will INCREASE revenue and HELP the deficit... while meanwhile massively increasing it under his administration... that guy still has responsibility for it decades later. (Throw in the hollywood greed-is-good-everyone-screw-over-your-neighbor-and-do-cocaine enthusiastic adoption of the era for good measure.)
Comment by lotsofpulp 6 hours ago
Comment by 8note 6 hours ago
why is fiscal responsibility an issue for social security, beyond governments stealing from it?
how many cuts to education or defense spending save social security?
Comment by LargeWu 6 hours ago
When Social Security was created in the 40's, the ratio of workers paying taxes to beneficiaries was like 40:1. So, each worker originally paid a very share amount.
Today, owing to demographic factors, that number is 3:1. Soon it will be 2:1. So by 203X, that number will drop below 1:1, meaning the program will be paying out more money than it takes in. It's at that point that the program will be considered "broke", because it can't meet its obligations.
So there's any number of solutions, which mostly boil down to some combination of the following: Raise SS taxes, cut benefits, or delay benefits (ie later retirement age)
Comment by rayiner 6 hours ago
You can't save it by cutting education or defense spending. By 2036 the combined social security and medicare shortfall is projected to reach $2.7 trillion. If defense spending stays at around 3.1% of GDP--it has been decreasing as a share of GDP since the 1990s--then the shortfall in medicare and social security will be about $1 trillion more than the entire defense budget.
Comment by fasterik 6 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
It isn't fully funded though and people have been raising the alarm for decades now that it will run out of money.
The problem isn't simply that governments are stealing from the social security pot, the program isn't designed in a sustainable way and there are no direct links between money taken in and benefits paid out. The assumption at the time was that growth would always keep up, that fails eventually.
Comment by throwaway5752 8 hours ago
This was the "Locked Box" that Al Gore got mocked for on SNL 26 years ago. So people saw it coming and were trying to fix it then. And it was the Democrats trying to fix, it is not a "both sides" case. There is one party trying to destroy Social Security, and one party trying to fix it. I encourage anyone to not take my word for it, and conduct some basic research of their own.
Anyway, the crisis is that there is less income than distribution. So we collect debt (unlikely, given appetite for US debt after the last 20 months or so) or reduce payments.
Since many social security recipients are wealthy and not at risk of poverty, what will happen is likely some sort of reduction after means testing. It is not ideal, but entirely because fiscal choices of America's collective fault.
Comment by stridTastic 7 hours ago
Comment by ano-ther 8 hours ago
Figure 1: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/why-the-national-de...
Comment by _heimdall 8 hours ago
I'm not sure how you could possibly narrow the issue down to two presidents' tax cuts alone. What about all the war spending? Or money printing? Or a partially implemented half step towards socialized health care?
Both parties are responsible for the debt we hold today, they have just argued about what to spend it on along the way.
Comment by actionfromafar 8 hours ago
Comment by _heimdall 6 hours ago
Where exactly we can find causes of our massive debt is an interesting question, and almost certainly wouldn't fall solely on tax cuts from two presidents.
Whether you agree with the current president or the insane things he sometimes says (I don't) is entirely separate.
Comment by fasterik 7 hours ago
https://www.crfb.org/papers/riches-rags-causes-fiscal-deteri...
>Rising spending relative to GDP explains about two-thirds of the growth in annual budget deficits since 2001, while declining revenue explains one-third.
>Most debt (77% of GDP) can be attributed to bipartisan legislation.
See also the "Debt Under Various Counterfactuals" projection, where the debt would have been roughly the same under two scenarios, "Without Major Tax Cuts" and "Without Major Spending Increases".
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/how-debt-got-100-gdp-riches-rags-...
Comment by 8note 6 hours ago
the big spend since 2001 was going to war
Comment by 0c3ca83 9 hours ago
The work on technology to take the place of policy is proceeding, thought slower than the leadership would prefer.
Comment by lotsofpulp 9 hours ago
Comment by greycol 9 hours ago
Comment by 0c3ca83 8 hours ago
If police have advanced surveillance technology and drones, even violent protest becomes very hard.
What pressure is there to cater to people who are powerless dead weight on the economy?
Comment by drdaeman 2 minutes ago
Comment by Buttons840 6 hours ago
Comment by 0c3ca83 6 hours ago
Voting happens because economic power implies political power. People must be kept satisfied for things to keep running.
If that deal gets upended, I don't think the economic dead weight will be treated well.
Comment by qlte 9 hours ago
We've been reshaping the system to redistribute trillions to capital owners via government IOUs that will eventually come due. Inevitably, this will be "solved" by cutting benefits to workers while insisting no other solution could possibly exist.
Like, you know, undoing these relatively recent handouts to the ultra rich and restructuring policy to the benefit of workers.
Comment by 8note 6 hours ago
for example, government ownership of automation would increase the government's spending power
Comment by eidkrkriei3848 8 hours ago
You prefer machines to make decisions?
Comment by 0c3ca83 6 hours ago
You can just lay them off.
Comment by solyin 8 hours ago
Comment by stridTastic 7 hours ago
Comment by DaedalusII 8 hours ago
This will push wealth concentration in leading OECD economies beyond the inequality seen in Brazil and Mexico.
Comment by DaedalusII 8 hours ago
Comment by londons_explore 42 minutes ago
Comment by SideQuark 7 hours ago
Here's BLS data for total cost to employ for the last 25 years. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ECIALLCIV
Note how much it has increased over simply wages, as it costs more and more to employee a person due to laws, benefits, and tooling.
Comment by _DeadFred_ 6 hours ago
Corporate Profits versus Labor Income https://fred.stlouisfed.org/blog/2018/08/corporate-profits-v...
Comment by toddmorey 9 hours ago
So next we automate the bejeebus out of this economy with AI robots and Elon believes it grows 3x in under five years. Splendid. But if a consumer-driven economy has no payrolls, it eventually has no buyers. It just seems to me that ultimately, billionaires and investors cannot decouple themselves from the masses... but maybe it's a game of get mine before the system collapses?
Comment by 80fj0348i 8 hours ago
The end state of this looks like how humanity looked before the industrial revolution: A single-digit percent of the population has the vast majority of the wealth and virtually all real estate and luxury goods. Between 90% and 95% of the population has just enough to live on, and never enough to build generational wealth or have any class mobility.
Comment by skybrian 1 hour ago
Pre-Industrial Societies: Anatomy of the Pre-Modern World https://www.amazon.com/dp/1780747411
Comment by PaulKeeble 8 hours ago
Comment by fnordpiglet 5 hours ago
The notion that people will simply roll over and literally die for profit margins is absurd. The system will break and be rebuilt in that situation.
Comment by 80fj0348i 2 hours ago
Comment by RitchieRicher 3 hours ago
Comment by bayarearefugee 4 hours ago
Yeah, I don't know why people seem to not understand this.
There are so many guns in America.
If the shit really hits the fan economically and a significant amount of people can't legally afford to buy their next 3 meals, there is likely to be a lot of excess deaths, but many of them will not be from starvation.
Comment by RitchieRicher 3 hours ago
the guns will be user to kill each other, not the elite
in a way, doing the elite work, no need to kill the underclass, they will take care of pruning itself
Comment by 80fj0348i 8 hours ago
I'm much more worried about what housing looks like in the future.
Comment by Alpha3031 6 hours ago
I've done social-work–adjacent stuff and I know a lot of NGOs in my country are quite strained (of course, probably housing more than food, so I don't disagree that might be more of a concern). I imagine it wouldn't be too different in America.
Comment by RitchieRicher 3 hours ago
Comment by 80fj0348i 2 hours ago
Comment by Alpha3031 8 hours ago
Now, the top 20% certainly aren't billionaires, but we also have to remember that the Luddites also benefited significantly from the automation of spinning before they themselves were replaced by automated weaving and subsequently suppressed by the state. There is no reason to think our current crop of labour aristocracy immune from the whims of capital when the time comes.
[BLS 2024]: https://www.bls.gov/cex/a-distributional-approach-to-us-pers... [2]: https://www.empower.com/the-currency/money/life/k-shaped-eco...
Comment by xlayn 8 hours ago
if a really powerful mafia got installed into your city, a very small violent group of people demanding people to pay to stay safe... how long before you start organizing? how long before they notice and do something about it?
Comment by sharts 8 hours ago
Comment by randerson 8 hours ago
Comment by actionfromafar 8 hours ago
Comment by RitchieRicher 9 hours ago
so yeah, billionaires without compute or robots will join the permanent underclass
Comment by skybrian 8 hours ago
Corporate profits versus labor income https://fred.stlouisfed.org/blog/2018/08/corporate-profits-v...
Why is labor going up? In part due to more hours worked:
Nonfarm Business Sector: Hours Worked for All Workers https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOANBS
If you divide labor income by hours worked, you should get hourly compensation:
Nonfarm Business Sector: Real Hourly Compensation for All Workers https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB
Working-age population is leveling off, though: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSQ647S
One would expect that retirees are mostly living off capital rather than labor. Wouldn't an increased elderly population result in a lower labor share?
Or maybe something else. This paper suggests that as workers get older, they switch jobs less and get fewer raises:
"We find that a 60-year-old worker receives half the marginal product relative to when they were 20. Together with recent demographic trends, this can account for 59% of the recent decline in labor’s share of earnings in the United States."
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2023/04/staff-working-paper-2023...
And no matter how you slice it, this is all working with national averages, which tell us little about anyone's personal situation.
Comment by rTX5CMRXIfFG 4 hours ago
Comment by AnthonyMouse 4 hours ago
From the article, the labor share of output is down from ~66% in 1947 to ~53% now. Over the same period, real GDP per capita is up ~370%:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/a939rx0q048sbea
We can easily multiply these together. The labor share of real GDP per capita is up by ~300%. Notice that this is less than the ~370% real GDP per capita is up overall, which is the one side's objection, but still significantly more than 0% and definitely not a negative number, which is the other side's retort.
The real question is, how do you reduce the amount of rent seeking? Because that's the thing that makes the first number go down instead of up, and you want them both to go up.
Comment by lokar 4 hours ago
A perhaps deeper question is what should we give more weight to: absolute wealth, or relative? Past a fairly low threshold people seem to mostly care about relative.
Comment by AnthonyMouse 3 hours ago
It's more like, people have squishy "fairness" wetware.
Suppose there is a button where if you press it, it causes your neighbor to get $50,000 in value and doesn't cost you anything whatsoever. You'd have to be a real bastard not to press the button, right?
Now suppose there is a button where if you press it, it causes your neighbor to get $50,000 and causes you to get $10,000. This one is even more obvious, but it's also the sort of thing where you wouldn't be surprised to discover people starting a campaign to say that the button is unfair and we need to ban anyone from doing that.
And it's basically because humans evolved under conditions of inherent scarcity. If you getting 20% of what someone else does means that you still get a house and a car and free time for your family/projects etc., and they get a mansion and a Ferrari and can pay someone to do things for them so they have even more free time, is that actually a problem? Whereas if you getting 20% of what someone else does means that you can't even feed your family while they're getting fat, you're going to go to war over that.
In a high scarcity environment, things look like the second one, and that's where the human fairness wetware got its intuitions. But modern stuff mostly looks like the first one, and to the extent it looks like the second one it's usually artificial scarcity. It's not that we lack the resources to produce enough housing, it's that building more of it in a particular place is prohibited by law. And then it's not that they get a bigger house than you, it's that you don't get one at all, and the objection goes back to being reasonable. But the better way to solve that is to build more housing -- eliminate artificial scarcity -- rather than trying to fight over a limited quantity of something that doesn't actually have to be so limited.
Comment by Artoooooor 8 hours ago
Comment by edoceo 9 hours ago
Top earnings come from the support of 1000s of participants with lesser earnings. This is an unhealthy economic trend. It's more than a stagnation risk.
Issues like these are created in a short term but take comparatively longer to correct.
Comment by sixdimensional 9 hours ago
The world is a very different place than it was in the early 20th century, but at the same time, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
I say this not to be a "doomer". I say this because those forces I mentioned above were very real and we have to keep our eyes wide open.
Comment by ProllyInfamous 9 hours ago
Pay peanuts, expect a circus.
At this point, we'll either have universal UBI -=or=- ongoing war.
Unfortunately, the latter is more profitable, so... the future is by design, probably.
Comment by kevin_thibedeau 9 hours ago
Comment by tialaramex 8 hours ago
Alice has nothing, Elon has $1T and we give them each a UBI of, lets say, $50k.
Your "instant inflation" means now their effective buying power is diluted by some fixed factor X. You claim this somehow leaves both Alice and Elon in "the same place they started from"
100000005 X == 100000000 but 5 X = 0, if you've done high school math you can probably see that there is no value of X for which this works.
Comment by dragonwriter 7 hours ago
Well, no, even if it causes inflation, everyone won't be in the same place they started from, because (even if you assume no additional progressive tax or other revenue stream is established alongside it) a flat per-capita additional personal income stream doesn't result in the same distribution of income as existed without it. It would narrow the (relative) range of income distribution, making the poor better off and the rich worse off (assuming no overall change in purchasing power.)
Comment by minraws 9 hours ago
And that's the only solution to UBI, when resources are abundant enough that UBI isn't needed or with UBI we increase resource enough that there isn't inflation risks.
All UBI experiments till now have proven it's not bad for the people, if we just manage the economy part it will all work out somehow.
Comment by bennettnate5 8 hours ago
(And I say controlled wages because the natural solution people bring up to paying for UBI is to carpet-tax the assets of the wealthy).
Comment by ProllyInfamous 8 hours ago
Or, 90% of us (that aren't zoo-worthy) will need to be exterminated. 2/3rds+ of us American't were "paycheck to paycheck" – a statistic which pre-dates Covid!
Eternal War is Peace™
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Comment by ChrisArchitect 6 hours ago
US Wages Share of GDI at 75 Year Low
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Comment by Dig1t 9 hours ago
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3198075/
In fact according to government data:
>U.S. counties with poverty rates exceeding 35% have age-adjusted obesity rates substantially higher than wealthy counties.
Being fat is actually a disease of the poor.
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Comment by skew-aberration 8 hours ago
Wages are just money and may or may not become capital according to the discretion and opportunities of the employee.
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