Nurses Sound Alarm as 'Uber for Nursing' Apps Push to Deregulate Healthcare
Posted by ravetcofx 14 hours ago
Comments
Comment by buran77 13 hours ago
Uber took an axe to taxi drivers which weren't a popular group to begin with so that was easy. With the "disruption" perfected, next up are doctors, nurses, lawyers, electricians, cooks, engineers, the sky is the limit.
Comment by howunfortunate 12 hours ago
Taxi drivers were not more "regulated" in any meaningful way, in fact oversight of them was significantly worse than the community-driven Uber rating system (not that that doesn't also have flaws).
Some regulation is bad, some regulation is good. There's basically nothing at all that's good about guild systems and I will celebrate each of them facing open market competition.
Comment by kilian_a 15 minutes ago
I got a fond appreciation of uber and other marketplaces that provide accountability using technology ever since.
Comment by noir_lord 12 hours ago
You are defaulting to the US here (and I doubt Taxi regulation in the US is that homologous either tbh given the complexity of 50 states and then cities on top of that).
Taking the country I'm most familiar with (the UK), Taxis fall into two categories (only one of which is technically a taxi by law if not convention - Hackney and private hire vehicles) both are licensed in different but similar ways by the licensing authorities (usually the local council but not always), some of those laws go back centuries.
Also worth noting, in the UK Uber does operate under the Private Hire Vehicle laws and does have to comply with applicable licensing same as any other "taxi" (private hire vehicle) operator.
They tried to argue otherwise and lost (at the UK Supreme Court so it's essentially settled case law) so they are classed as a PHV Operator and must ensure they only use a properly licensed PHV vehicle and drivers and can't pull the "but they are independent contractors" card out when it explodes in their faces.
It was a little more nuanced than that. The actual case was about whether a private hire operator accepting a booking had to contract with the customer as principal, rather than merely acting as an agent arranging a contract between the customer and driver (which was essentially Uber's argument).
The (UK) Supreme Court said "nah, it's you, nice try though".
Comment by Gareth321 2 hours ago
Uber made it very clear who the terrible drivers were. It turned it into a real service industry where good service was expected. Suddenly scammers couldn't hide behind anonymity. To this day I would rather pay 2x as much for an Uber than take a regular taxi. That's how much they sucked.
Comment by multjoy 11 hours ago
The third outing with the Supreme Court was about employment rights - were the drivers workers, or genuine independent contractors for whom Uber are merely acting as a booking agent (which the Uber model relies almost entirely on).
The Employment Tribunal, The Employment Appeal Tribunal, The Court of Appeal and finally the Supreme Court all said "nah fam, you ain't fooling nobody" and the original ET was especially scathing:
> It seems to us that the Respondents' general case and the written terms on which they rely do not correspond with the practical reality. The notion that Uber in London is a mosaic of 30,000 small businesses linked by a common 'platform' is to our minds faintly ridiculous. In each case the 'business' consists of a man with a car seeking to make a living by driving it.
Comment by noir_lord 11 hours ago
Comment by Normal_gaussian 8 hours ago
Very very few other businesses get to act so brazenly and dangerously, then get an extended period of time and support to do the bare minimum to qualify as compliant.
Comment by hackingonempty 12 hours ago
Taxis have standardized rates set by the municipality and use standardized meters that are periodically inspected. Ride sharing apps have dynamic pricing and no transparency.
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by pseudo0 12 hours ago
Comment by Ccecil 11 hours ago
It could turn out to be 2-3x the "normal" cost due to surge pricing. This often happens to people who go out drinking and think "I'll just grab an Uber later".
Recently heard someone complaining about the $45 cost to go 3 miles.
*Sidenote: people with dementia should probably have someone in the car with them to be sure they get to the appointments. That solves the issue of shady people taking advantage of them for the most part.
Comment by pseudo0 11 hours ago
> *Sidenote: people with dementia should probably have someone in the car with them to be sure they get to the appointments. That solves the issue of shady people taking advantage of them for the most part.
Her dementia was still fairly mild at that point, she could easily manage taking a taxi from A to B, she just wouldn't push back if the guy said it was $30 when it should have been $10. It's tricky to figure out the right supports and boundaries at that stage, especially for elderly people used to being self-sufficient. Convincing her to stop driving was hard enough...
Comment by Ccecil 11 hours ago
Understood, IMHO...it is easier to find a reputable taxi company than it is to predict surge pricing. Or at least it used to be when you had a choice.
Comment by Ccecil 13 hours ago
Aside from turning employees into contractors...most of which have not done the math on how much they are losing through having to use your own car with no employee benefits. Doordash/Uber start looking a lot less attractive if you figure in the $.65/mile costs (fuel, repairs, insurance, car purchase price) that you would be paid by most govt or "real" companies. Almost everyone I know who does Doordash makes about $20/hr (which isn't good anyways) and they are not figuring in the costs of the vehicle.
Comment by sidewndr46 12 hours ago
Comment by pseudo0 11 hours ago
Comment by Ccecil 11 hours ago
Maintenance and fuel are a much larger part of the total costs. It is very easy to math out if you break down by the "recommended service intervals" which are largely based on mileage (fluids do require changing with time intervals but normal driving usually matches up with the mileage).
The myth that a car sitting still is losing money has been sold by the insurance companies. It is only cheaper to buy a new car vs fixing one if you account for the loss if someone runs into you and totals the car. My car which I have maintained and is 14 years old is worth way more to me than the amount that is placed on it by people who have it in their interest to say it is worthless due to age.
Sidenote: I tracked all my miles, costs and income while delivering pizzas many years ago. These costs vary greatly depending on the car. The 89 subaru justy I purchased to deliver was $.25/mile whereas my 93 mazda 626 was closer to $.60 (2004 pricing). My current car is ~$.60/mile also. Currently, the IRS mileage rates for business is $.70/mile, do any of the gig economies pay this? [1]
[1] https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/standard-mileage-rates
Comment by pseudo0 8 hours ago
> Currently, the IRS mileage rates for business is $.70/mile, do any of the gig economies pay this? [1]
I used to get paid that rate at my old job and it was an amazing deal, it was way over my actual costs for the vehicle. With a small fuel-efficient car I was covering my gas, insurance, and depreciation with a few trips each year. It was effectively my work paying for a free car I'd get to use the rest of the time.
That's the issue with using one number as a very rough estimate, it has to account for everything from contractors driving work trucks to someone commuting in a Model 3.
Comment by acchow 11 hours ago
The people driving Uber have mostly figured this out by now.
Comment by SoftTalker 12 hours ago
Comment by tasty_freeze 12 hours ago
I'm not sure if it is because uber (or whomever they work for) didn't make it clear enough to track it properly or if they simply didn't take it seriously.
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
https://help.uber.com/en/driving-and-delivering/article/wher...
Comment by SoftTalker 12 hours ago
Comment by the_sleaze_ 12 hours ago
Sadly she is just another poor tax. Highly paid tax preparers are happy to fudge numbers. I've seen it personally - every year.
Comment by onedognight 12 hours ago
Comment by alliao 12 hours ago
Comment by asanineassasin 12 hours ago
Comment by threetonesun 12 hours ago
Comment by randerson 12 hours ago
Comment by swatcoder 12 hours ago
Many that haven't succumbed to PE yet know what it brings and appreciate the opportunity to speak to the issue themselves. Many of the best really wish more customers were paying attention and giving them credit for their choice not to sell out.
Meanwhile, many that haven't will either justify their corporate ownership or just kind of dodge the issue.
You can ask other providers for gossip and insight about ones you're curious about -- especially other providers in fields that are connected/adjacent but not directly competitive. The true locals are generally delighted to call out the sell outs.
It's not foolproof, but it's an effective start.
Comment by mrtksn 12 hours ago
Unfortunately some harm can be inflicted bur IMHO it’s better than the alternative.
Comment by andy99 11 hours ago
Comment by ethersteeds 10 hours ago
One reason "Uber for X" appears not to have materialized is that the platforms themselves are commoditized, not just the labor. Retailers like Lowe's and Wayfair have built assembly/installation services behind a checkout upsell. They run portals distributing work to their "network of local contractors" .
I got a window into this world through an acquaintance. He has a truck and light trade skills, but mental and reputational legacies of past addiction lock him out of the "anyone good" market. He's on a half dozen platforms, trying to stitch a living doing sink or toilet installs for Lowe's and building bookcases for Wayfair. A negative review gets you demoted from the choice gigs, or even kicked from the platform entirely. It's bleak.
Comment by conception 7 hours ago
Comment by xlayn 12 hours ago
The good thing is that we will not be fooled this time while checking the dead bird thing...
Comment by Glyptodon 12 hours ago
I do not think this will hold with nursing.
Comment by mristin 12 hours ago
Comment by sershe 11 hours ago
Not sure about the nurses, but my grandmothers were able to afford live-in caretakers in old age, without any government help or having much money, because these are completely unregulated (outside the US; or the regulation is not enforced)... We found good ones thru word of mouth, exactly the approach apps can scale
Comment by nikanj 11 hours ago
Comment by bcvvvy 12 hours ago
I can't wait until they disrupt something a cartel or the mafia are in on.
Comment by kotaKat 12 hours ago
Comment by stackghost 11 hours ago
Comment by Shank 13 hours ago
I used Zocdoc in the past to find a doctor and ended up with a doctor who just charged out-of-pocket instead of insurance, and it worked great. Would an app that shows up-front pricing be better for the consumer?
Comment by tantalor 13 hours ago
Comment by skybrian 13 hours ago
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2025/11/health-at-a-gla...
Comment by Lammy 12 hours ago
Comment by damascus_kei 12 hours ago
Comment by responder41 12 hours ago
Comment by 7777777phil 13 hours ago
Comment by croes 12 hours ago
Comment by joe_the_user 12 hours ago
Comment by skybrian 11 hours ago
Comment by excannuk 11 hours ago
Comment by howunfortunate 12 hours ago
Every serious analysis of the US healthcare system I've ever seen comes away with the takeaway "Americans consume a lot of healthcare services and the expensive part of that is the providers' salaries"
Comment by evulhotdog 10 hours ago
For example, on a roughly 400k surgery, maybe 4-5k of that goes to the providers (anesthesia and the surgeon), dependent one on the codes billed for the procedure.
There are private groups that purposely do not take insurance and bill purely out of pocket with a one time fee including all follow up’s and subsequent care, related to that procedure, and it is significantly lower (like 90%+ less) than what an average hospital is charging.
Comment by howunfortunate 4 hours ago
I would bet a LOT of money that it is 90% lower for a "typical" patient but not 90% lower (and very likely pretty comparable) on average.
To state it more plainly: every time you pay for medical care in the US, you are subsidizing a half dozen people who consume 5x the services you do and do not pay.
That's why "fee only" medical (which always conveniently has no emergency services, you'll notice) can offer such low rates.
Comment by hedora 12 hours ago
To see how this is possible, enumerate all the other people getting paid, and then compare to a country with a working health care system.
The most obvious difference is that the US spends an absurd amount of money administering health insurance.
Comment by twoodfin 12 hours ago
https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2025/11/health-at-a-gla...
Comment by hedora 4 hours ago
On the other hand, specialists are more profitable for the "non-profit" healthcare networks we have around here, so they're easy to get appointments with.
Comment by aliasxneo 12 hours ago
Comment by za_creature 13 hours ago
You know the videos of those couriers eating your food and claiming that it was delivered?
Comment by codeddesign 13 hours ago
Comment by testing22321 10 hours ago
100%.
Nobody living in a country with healthcare for all with no out of pocket costs would ever care about such a thing.
I spend as much time thinking about “fixing” my healthcare as I do thinking about fixing the supermarket or the roads around here.
Ie not one second because they work perfectly.
Comment by croes 12 hours ago
Comment by le-mark 13 hours ago
We can assume all gig economy companies do this? Brave new world indeed.
Comment by supertrope 12 hours ago
Comment by neal_jones 12 hours ago
Comment by monster_truck 12 hours ago
Comment by 74948494i4 13 hours ago
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/key-facts-about-hospitals/?...
It is also unclear how this is any different than traveling nurses which operate similarly.
What is the solution that doesn’t result in at least some large group of people making less money?
Comment by JoshTriplett 13 hours ago
Comment by madars 1 hour ago
What we need is competitive markets, what we get is heavy intervention. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_need system means that to build a new hospital one needs to go to their direct competitors to ask for their permission. Imagine if to open a pastry shop you needed a permission from every other pastry shop in the city - bonkers.
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Even if financial constraints were removed, the notion that we could produce twice as many physicians is ludicrous. There simply aren't enough attendings able to supervise a lot more residents, nor are there enough patient cases coming through the teaching hospitals to give that many residents the practical training they would need.
Comment by howunfortunate 12 hours ago
It's the AMA.
"Free to add more" is hiding a LOT of important nuts and bolts of the guild system that discourages new entrants.
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by howunfortunate 12 hours ago
Can you imagine if that website were for programmers?
"Waaaah we need more Staff Engineers at OpenAI but we just can't afford training them due to Congress not doling out enough for it, boo hoo".
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
State medical boards are the entities which ultimately decide on physician licensing criteria.
Comment by keane 11 hours ago
This AMA/ACGME protection theory is covered by Yascha Mounk at https://www.persuasion.community/p/deaton and elsewhere.
Discussion of physician protectionism is also found in the 2017 book by John Hopkins political science professor Steven Teles and Niskanen Center vice president Brink Lindsey The Captured Economy: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-captured-economy...
The New York Times covered the AMA's lobbying in this 1986 article: https://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/14/us/ama-board-studies-ways...
There's also the 1970 article by University of Chicago economics professor Reuben A. Kessel, The A.M.A. and the Supply of Physicians: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/lcp/vol35/iss2/4/
Comment by nradov 10 hours ago
There are valid reasons to criticize the AMA but blocking the training of new physicians isn't one of them.
Comment by keane 10 hours ago
Comment by nradov 7 hours ago
The AMA, and physicians in general, are obviously not the primary obstacle here. Complaining about their past actions won't solve any of the actual problems we have today
Comment by keane 2 hours ago
Comment by dividefuel 12 hours ago
Comment by the_sleaze_ 12 hours ago
The USA doesn't recognize those other doctors (in more ways than 1 apparently) and that is an aspect of the issue.
Comment by ikr678 12 hours ago
Prestige and potential higher pay for specialisations will still attract people to the profession, although maybe not if the university costs for medicine remain as high as they currently are.
Comment by thaeli 12 hours ago
Comment by supertrope 12 hours ago
Comment by JoshTriplett 11 hours ago
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by za_creature 12 hours ago
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by za_creature 12 hours ago
Comment by xnyan 9 hours ago
Comment by nradov 7 hours ago
Comment by arjie 12 hours ago
Comment by thatfrenchguy 13 hours ago
Comment by rileymat2 11 hours ago
How the board gets approved to be elected is a bit self selected, but in theory it should be controlled by people that have incentives, the same as a public corporation.
Now this is an insurance company and not a provider network,some provider networks are more self owned.
Comment by BurningFrog 13 hours ago
They have no stock holders to pay, but the people running them will pay themselves multi million dollar wages if they can!
Comment by moi2388 12 hours ago
Comment by alliao 12 hours ago
Comment by lifeisloving 13 hours ago
Comment by joe_the_user 12 hours ago
Comment by excannuk 11 hours ago
Comment by gambiting 13 hours ago
Like, sorry, but not being from the US the whole idea of a "margin" when running a hospital is insane. Hospitals are paid from our ample taxes and the patient pays nothing - there is no room for profit there, not should there be one.
Comment by 74948494i4 13 hours ago
Comment by jazmichaelking 12 hours ago
Let's assume UK. Less. US physicians earn about twice what their UK peers do, US RNs about 1.5x https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...
>how long do patients wait for care
About the same or longer, in general UK consumes less healthcare per person, but...
>what is the level of care
Better outcomes in the UK https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-does-the-us-healthcare-syst... and longer UK life expectancy https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2025/11/health-at-a-gla... (and of course US has higher levels of chronic illness https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-has...
All for far less (share of GDP) than US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?locat...
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by za_creature 12 hours ago
Comment by OptionOfT 9 hours ago
I don't need a platform that takes 25% off of the handyman that I call. All that happens is that I pay 25% more. And if the platform becomes large enough it'll set policies that the handyman cannot offer lower prices outside of the platform...
Comment by CapmCrackaWaka 13 hours ago
Comment by xnyan 9 hours ago
Comment by responder41 13 hours ago
Comment by lukan 13 hours ago
Otherwise I unfortunately know plenty of doctors that could easily be replaced by an LLM, but for now I prefer a diagnosis from a real doctor (who may use AI as a tool).
Comment by xnyan 9 hours ago
Comment by nradov 12 hours ago
Comment by za_creature 12 hours ago
Comment by the_sleaze_ 12 hours ago
If you think your doctor isn't claudeing it up at their little station you're sorely mistaken.
Comment by za_creature 12 hours ago
[edit] ... and not because discovery is 90% of what a doctor does, but because treatment ultimately boils down to a judgement call with possibly irreversible consequences
Comment by doomspork 12 hours ago
Comment by randyrand 11 hours ago
Comment by bagels 13 hours ago
Comment by theo939eirn 13 hours ago
Ripe for disruption!
Comment by changoplatanero 13 hours ago
Comment by 5mk 13 hours ago
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...
Comment by responder41 13 hours ago
The 15% extra administrative cost of insurance and 15% extra administrative burden of applying care are the big culprits, in addition to extra costs on medicine and machinery. But it's interesting. Why is it that a comparatively deregulated and privatized system has so much extra pricing cost from bureaucracy?
Comment by Nifty3929 13 hours ago
Comment by jtmarl1n 13 hours ago
Comment by Ccecil 13 hours ago
[1] https://www.trillianthealth.com/market-research/studies/hosp...
Comment by BoardsOfCanada 12 hours ago
Comment by boredatoms 13 hours ago
Comment by kraken_cult 13 hours ago
Comment by BurningFrog 13 hours ago
Last I heard the AMA controls how many doctors can be educated.
Comment by 0xbadcafebee 13 hours ago
Physicians also make 2-3x more than physicians in other countries. Why? Their education cost is also 2-3x higher than in other countries.
Hospitals and procedures are expensive, in part because of insurance. Insurance is high because our society is too litigious. It's also expensive because of consolidated private healthcare systems that can control and mark up prices due to lack of competition.
Other countries spend half what we do on healthcare. And their people are often healthier.
Comment by 0xbadcafebee 13 hours ago
Comment by kraken_cult 13 hours ago
Comment by SoftTalker 12 hours ago
Comment by kraken_cult 12 hours ago
Comment by 0xbadcafebee 8 hours ago
The real fix is to make it so their main job is hydrating enough, or the thing half the country hates the idea of (public fountains). IRS can't do either. Independent contracting is still a valuable mode of work, when the contractors are paid enough. So rather than ban forms of gig work, we need to provide good paying jobs and social services, and get the rich to pay their fair share.
Comment by newyankee 13 hours ago
In before someone says that your reasoning is flawed because that is very incorrect perception of the field. All I see is that regulatory capture has worked very well here and is simply stopping totally novel and practical ideas which work on tradeoffs from even taking off
Comment by F7F7F7 12 hours ago
Comment by gxs 12 hours ago
On the one hand, a good nurse is invaluable. They do the hard work that doctors won’t/don’t do, and can be so kind and generous during your time of need.
On the other ones, there are so many who mail it in and are just milking the system
Healthcare is so expensive - some nurses are making 500k a year - their union contracts base vary from 200k to 300k for something like 32-36 hours per week
On top of that, they can pretty much work unlimited overtime with zero restrictions. They can work enough overtime hours such that they can nearly double their salary. And that’s how you come up with the 500k figure I posted
Granted, that’s at the top of the range, I’m talking about somewhere like the Bay Area, and does require a ton of overtime, but those extra 100s of thousands add up. These hours can’t be spread around to minimize the amount of time and a half or double pay paid out, per contract they go in order of seniority
This is just nurses and I imagine it’s something similar but with higher rates for specialists like anesthesiologists and still beyond that doctors and surgeons
I don’t begrudge anyone’s salaries, but it’s a zero sum game. There’s a reason why, aside from typical corporate profit maximization, you wind up with a 30k bill for a short visit. Even if you account for the lower rates insurance companies pay, it’s still in the thousands of dollars for treatment where you were seen for less than 30 minutes
Like I said, to be clear, I don’t begrudge anyone’s salaries - this is just an under discussed point when we talk about healthcare costs
Labor is generally reported as 60% of the costs of hospitals - so if you’d ever want to talk about making healthcare affordable you’d have to address this which I feel like is a bit of a taboo subject. Many nurses are in a union which makes it an even more difficult conversation
All that is to say, I can see the motivation behind stuff like this, even if I don’t agree with it
Comment by darth_avocado 11 hours ago
You are begrudging someone’s salary. Nurses make 500k by working overtime. You know why they work overtime? Because it’s cheaper for the hospital than to hire 2 nurses. The problem isn’t the nursing salaries. It is the administrative costs that make your healthcare too expensive. Why do you think single payer reduces healthcare costs?
PS: median nursing salaries are still under a $100k. The numbers you pointed to are not the norm.
Comment by charlie90 10 hours ago
Comment by gxs 8 hours ago
I also said this was for the Bay Area - it’s not the norm but it’s not infrequent either
Labor costs are 60% or hospital expenses, I didn’t make that number up and you just glossed over.
And again, I said it was just an issue to be discussed. If discussion leads to it’s not worth discussing, that’s great and a great outcome
You did the thing where you just sort of read what you wanted to read in my comment vs addressing what it said
Comment by tamimio 12 hours ago
Comment by thomasdziedzic 13 hours ago
Nurses form the backbone of healthcare. Treat them as such.
Edit: To those downvoting me, talk to a real nurse and I bet you wouldn't take twice the pay to do half the work they have to deal with.
Comment by arjie 12 hours ago
There's a good argument to say that sufficiently aggregated marketplaces can launder price collusion, and if we were in such an aggregated marketplace then you could make that argument. But we're not in that situation right now.
The 'Edit:' is even more confusing. If I talk to someone in a profession and I wouldn't take twice the pay they receive to do half the work they do then they deserve higher wages? But that list is huge. Congressmen, Senators, many CEOs, Wagner-group mercenaries, ICE officers, drone pilots. In fact, almost every profession has this 4x effective slippage you're talking about.
Comment by thomasdziedzic 12 hours ago
One movie that made me change my perspective on nursing as a field was the Swiss movie Late Shift. It really opened my eyes to what nurses have to deal with. Yes the US might be different in having lower patient to nurse ratios but at the end of the day I think it's still applicable.
Comment by arjie 11 hours ago
I still think their monetary compensation should be provided by market valuation of the utility of the work they do.
Comment by phoghed 12 hours ago
Comment by jon128 13 hours ago
Comment by andyjohnson0 13 hours ago
Comment by wewewedxfgdf 13 hours ago
Like nurses are just an expense.
Comment by Avicebron 13 hours ago
Comment by jareklupinski 13 hours ago
Comment by im3w1l 12 hours ago
"Gig nursing apps MAY [my caps] determine pay by what the firm knows about how much a nurse was willing to accept for a previous assignment, how often they bid for shifts, or how much credit card or other kinds of debt they might hold."
That kind of sounds like they are overselling a hypothetical. Even just an "insiders familiar with the matter have told us that it IS happening", would make me believe it more.
Comment by antonvs 13 hours ago
Comment by daedrdev 13 hours ago
Comment by lifeisloving 13 hours ago
Insurance companies were the largest purchasers of private jets last year because they were so flush with cash.
Comment by daedrdev 13 hours ago
Comment by dyauspitr 13 hours ago
Comment by Hnrobert42 11 hours ago
Nurses change dressings. Insert catheters. Move heavy patients without hurting themselves. Prepare equipment for surgery. Ensure the sterile field is maintained. Operate specialized equipment. Triage medical emergencies.
And about a million other things that the average person doesn't know how to do.
Comment by dyauspitr 8 hours ago
Comment by erelong 10 hours ago