Navier-Stokes Announcement
Posted by rvz 15 hours ago
Comments
Comment by Legend2440 14 hours ago
As the OpenAI proof hasn't been officially published yet, the clock hasn't started ticking.
Comment by eru 12 hours ago
Though it would be funny if no one ever bothers publishing the result in an appropriate journal, and thus the prize technically can never be claimed.
Comment by Aissen 59 minutes ago
No I cannot, and I'd argue most people can't either. We rely on mathematicians, peer review, and letting the scientific process run its course.
Comment by soerxpso 32 minutes ago
Comment by tired-turtle 13 minutes ago
Comment by senordevnyc 30 minutes ago
Comment by c7b 11 hours ago
Comment by yen223 9 hours ago
Comment by soperj 4 hours ago
OpenAI the opposite.
Comment by thrance 9 hours ago
Comment by peacefullmind 6 hours ago
Comment by jgalt212 6 hours ago
Comment by jacobrussell 5 hours ago
Comment by pvab3 5 hours ago
Comment by znnajdla 58 minutes ago
Comment by pred_ 5 hours ago
Comment by auggierose 14 hours ago
Edit: Oh, didn't see the "qualifying outlet" condition. But Poincare was ever just put on arXiv, so arXiv must count as well.
Comment by adastra22 13 hours ago
Comment by CGMthrowaway 4 hours ago
Comment by adastra22 14 minutes ago
Comment by fc417fc802 12 hours ago
Comment by aaron695 11 hours ago
Comment by Razengan 8 hours ago
Comment by AnimalMuppet 6 hours ago
But no, peer reviewed and published in a reputable journal is a fairly normal standard.
Comment by pred_ 5 hours ago
Comment by karmakurtisaani 3 hours ago
Comment by limagnolia 4 hours ago
That being said, I think there needs to be some standard, and peer review seems like the best we have come up with. But is the current status quo for scientific publication the best we can do? I think that is an open question and we should be able to openly discuss alternatives.
Comment by AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago
Comment by Razengan 4 hours ago
and the whole "publishing papers" thing gets called out as a racket even on HN now and then
with many videos against it by former "academia" people on YouTube.
The sooner AI brings down such archaic customs into a gibbering pile of protesting rubble, the better innit?
Comment by AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago
Comment by Razengan 42 minutes ago
Comment by auggierose 12 hours ago
I guess these little questions are what this article is really about.
Comment by d0mine 12 hours ago
Comment by auggierose 12 hours ago
Comment by athrowaway3z 11 hours ago
Peer in peer-reviewed is a logical coherent and functional definition with answers.
The logical issue with 'peers' is how to bootstrap it. At that bootstrap moment you can ask "by whom?". We are several centuries past that moment.
The cultural/social question you might ask today is "why (keep) them?".
At which point people will naturally ask you to make a strong case for "why not them?".
Comment by thaumasiotes 11 hours ago
Huh? We're about six decades past that moment.
Comment by auggierose 11 hours ago
What is the definition? If you tell me that, then I might be able to tell you if it is logical coherent and functional, I have a PhD in computational logic.
Comment by da_chicken 11 hours ago
Comment by athrowaway3z 6 hours ago
peer(X, 0) :- founding_peer(X).
electorate(T, count<Y>) :- peer(Y, T).
support(X, T, count<Y>) :- candidate(X), peer(Y, T), recognizes(Y, X, T+1).
peer(X, T+1) :- support(X, T, Votes), electorate(T, Total), 2 * Votes > Total.
Comment by auggierose 2 hours ago
Comment by raverbashing 9 hours ago
And you don't know how the peer-review system works?
Just a hunch but Claude saying your work is "PhD level" does not count
Comment by auggierose 2 hours ago
Comment by wokwokwok 10 hours ago
Comment by auggierose 10 hours ago
Comment by raegis 13 hours ago
Comment by mr_mitm 6 hours ago
Comment by fasterik 6 hours ago
Without limiting any other provision in this Section, a publication lacking any of the following characteristics will be deemed not to be a Qualifying Outlet:
i. an editorial board whose members are named and available for contact;
ii. an editor or editorial board member whose professional knowledge of the global mathematics community would enable him or her to identify an appropriate referee to review a submitted paper;
iii. a published refereeing process that, in the opinion of CMI, ensures that a submitted paper is reviewed and verified by appropriate experts in the field of the Problem; or
iv. inclusion in the list of publications maintained by MathSciNet.
The solution to the Poincaré conjecture was only accepted after an exposition of Perelman's proof was published in a refereed journal. His papers didn't qualify, but of course he got the credit for the result.
Comment by moffkalast 10 hours ago
Comment by setopt 9 hours ago
If you make a new account, you either have to get someone to vouch for you, or you have to wait arXiv mods to look carefully through your first few preprints. If you are found to post pseudoscience, overly fringe theories, etc., you'll get banned from arXiv; that's why alternative repositories like vixRa.org popped up.
But I know why you think this; when I first joined arXiv many years, there were no such checks in place, at least not that I can remember.
Comment by mr_mitm 6 hours ago
Comment by whateverboat 1 hour ago
Comment by aeve890 5 hours ago
Strangely enough, the crackpots seems to prefer vixra.org to publish their work. I've never seen something like "4D wormholes can cure cancer" in ArXiv
Comment by baby 14 hours ago
Comment by seanhunter 13 hours ago
Comment by zone411 12 hours ago
This is all you need to read and understand for Anthropic's FLT formalization:
import Mathlib
import Theorems.Thm_fermat_last_theorem
/-- Solution side: the same statement, binder for binder, proved by this tree's `fermat_last_theorem`. -/
theorem FLT_for_comparator (n : ℕ) (hn : 3 ≤ n) (a b c : ℕ) (ha : 0 < a) (hb : 0 < b) (hc : 0 < c) :
a ^ n + b ^ n ≠ c ^ n :=
fermat_last_theorem n hn a b c ha hb hc
/-- Mathlib's named proposition, by the one-line bridge from the elementary statement
(the bridge is restated inline so that this file depends only on `Theorems.Thm_fermat_last_theorem`). -/
theorem FLT_mathlib_for_comparator : FermatLastTheorem :=
fun n hn a b c ha hb hc => fermat_last_theorem n hn a b c (Nat.pos_of_ne_zero ha) (Nat.pos_of_ne_zero hb) (Nat.pos_of_ne_zero hc)
The actual proof is 13 million lines of Lean.Comment by Paracompact 11 hours ago
Second of all, you did not read the link.
> In particular, we use honest when the goal is to create a valid proof. This allows for mistakes and bugs in proofs and meta-code (tactics, attributes, commands, etc.), but not for code that clearly only serves to circumvent the system (such as using the debug.skipKernelTC).
Given that AI has autonomously found proofs of `False` in Lean and other proof assistants, it is far from impossible that such a circumvention could be present somewhere in 13 million lines.
Comment by pama 4 hours ago
Comment by Paracompact 1 hour ago
Do you believe no open questions remain as to the truth of the Collatz conjecture?
Comment by kzrdude 10 hours ago
Comment by u1hcw9nx 11 hours ago
Building a system that reliably detects vacuous proofs in all cases is fundamentally undecidable. It's equal to the halting problem.
Comment by i_no_can_eat 9 hours ago
Comment by JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago
Trivially, a proof that relies on a bug in Lean. Less trivially, a proof that is technically true but about something trivial and does not, in fact, prove what it claims to have proven.
Comment by u1hcw9nx 9 hours ago
Comment by Tanjreeve 9 hours ago
If 1 == 3 then 3 == 3
----
This statement is 100% logically coherent internally. But it also doesn't matter because we know that 1 does not equal 3 so this proof is completely pointless. I could also say 3 == 5 and it would still be logically sound but completely useless information.
Comment by Panzer04 8 hours ago
Are you proving for some arbitrary definition of == that isn't what we commonly consider the definition? How is it logically coherent? You mean only in the sense that you say it is and you haven't provided any rules to disprove it?
Comment by NewsaHackO 7 hours ago
Comment by JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago
It's not. But Lean doesn't interrogate logical coherence, just internal consistency.
Comment by rramadass 5 hours ago
I highly recommend the following two books to study Logic from the beginning (for a layman);
Logic: An Introduction to Elementary Logic by Wilfrid Hodges.
Introduction to Logic: and to the Methodology of Deductive Sciences by Alfred Tarski.
Comment by vouaobrasil 5 hours ago
Can only be false if there is an instance where A is true, and B is false. In all other cases it's true, even when A is always false.
That's the key.
Comment by paulddraper 6 hours ago
E.g. “If it’s raining, the sidewalk is wet.” That statement holds if it’s not raining or the sidewalk is wet.
This is a common occurrence in mathematics, where someone might not be able to unconditionally prove Y, but they can under the condition X. Later, another mathematician might build on this by proving X, thereby transitively proving Y. (Or conversely, they might unconditionally disprove Y, thereby disproving X.)
Many hard problems are answered this way.
For example, Fermat’s Last Theorem was proven assuming the Taniyama-Shimura-Weil Conjecture, then Wiles proved the conjecture.
Thousands of theorems rely on the the unproven Reinmann Hypothesis, which is why it’s so interesting to mathematicians.
But if your precondition is “stupid,” your proof is stupid.
Comment by perching_aix 5 hours ago
Semantic versioning describes the following idealized setup:
- you have an interface you expose (a contract, and thus a contract signature)
- you do not change the contract signature -> patch version bump
- you do change it but in a non-breaking way (e.g. additively) -> minor version bump
- you do change it but in a breaking way (e.g. mutatively or destructively) -> major version bump
One would expect then that since interface signatures are statically derivable, semantic version tags can be auto-assigned. And indeed, in lots of shops that's exactly what happens (in my opinion, correctly).
The problem with this is that it comes with a lot more smoke than fire. The interface having no changes or non-breaking changes doesn't mean the actual code behind those interfaces is not going to cause a breakage. It literally is just about the interface itself.
And so unless you encode absolutely everything about the semantics your implementation actually observes into the interface, which is what the semver specification asks you to do so as their sleight of hand, this means the interface will be a leaky abstraction. Which means that external software interfacing with yours may observe behavior that is beyond the purview of semantic versioning. Which means that they do. Which means that they absolutely can and will break, and your package managers' fancy version constraint syntax exists to make such fun events happen.
The way this is usually handled then is:
- you live with the pain: acknowledge the limitations of semver, accept you've been duped, and just give in
- you have human release managers assign versions manually, based on whole program and whole system semantics (with the human overhead and error that entails), falsely claiming that what you're doing is still semver
- you switch to a less deceptive versioning scheme, like calendar versioning; as a bonus, you now no longer have to pretend that your entire application somehow only has a single unified interface
This mirrors the Lean statement and Lean proof situation. The statement is like an interface, and the proof is like the implementation behind that interface. The way the proof is derived may expose semantic gaps in the statement itself, and (ab)use them to obtain the logical consistency certificate. Hence, a vacuous proof, and hence why this is not statically assertable to be not the case. It is part of the challenge in asserting that the statement was correctly formalized in the first place: you need to manually identify whether the way the consistency was achieved is actually meaningful, or just a formalization gap.
Which really makes me wonder about the actual value proposition of Lean then, but alas...
Comment by empath75 6 hours ago
It was too easy, so I double checked my definitions, but it is quite easy to do something like that. And Claude does things like that quite frequently.
I am going through the exercise right now of trying to get Claude to formalize a published paper and it is a _struggle_ to get it not to take shortcuts or prove approximations of the paper’s theorems and then tell you it’s done.
Comment by hn_throwaway_99 1 hour ago
That is, verifying a proof in English was a painstaking, years long process in the past as independent mathematicians looked for holes in the steps connecting the logic. When the proof is written in Lean, all of that work goes away. My point is that if OpenAI publishes the Lean code (not sure if they already did), verification should take weeks not years.
Comment by eru 12 hours ago
Comment by seanhunter 11 hours ago
Comment by eru 10 hours ago
Comment by d0mine 12 hours ago
It is interesting that AI-generated proofs are described as malicious by Lean docs unless reviewed.
Comment by whateverboat 11 hours ago
Comment by margorczynski 8 hours ago
Comment by thaumasiotes 11 hours ago
Comment by tkz1312 9 hours ago
Comment by rramadass 13 hours ago
Humans need to verify everything.
Comment by phtrivier 12 hours ago
Comment by naishoya 11 hours ago
This is the exact same kind of behavour already documented in the publicly available portion of the huggingface breach. It would appear that the probability is at least nonzero for one or more situations with the same result: appearance of a valid proof, without comprehensibility of that proof or inspect-ability of the proofs validity.
Comment by Paracompact 11 hours ago
Comment by naishoya 11 hours ago
Significant evidence exists that they have in the past been at least, if not more, foolish as to not perform even minimal not-approaching the boundary of cursory vetting of several significant and well known failure modes with far greater risk of reputational damage than getting an esoteric math solution falsely claimed as successful.
So that doubt appears baseless in light of known operating conditions at OpenAI, and the estimate of the actual odds is probably an order of magnitude away from reality.
Comment by IsTom 11 hours ago
Comment by eru 11 hours ago
However if the prove relies on a bug like that, you'll be able to 'simplify' the proof a lot and you'll be able to proof contradictions.
Comment by thaumasiotes 11 hours ago
I don't think this is true in general.
It's an issue I've already run into in personal work. I want to do a proof that involves some cases. It happens to the best of us.
In lean, the structure of a situation like this is that your single branch with a goal divides into multiple branches, all sharing the same original goal but including one additional premise that defines the branch.
Sometimes I know that for whatever reason one case I have to deal with is impossible. The most correct way to show that is to prove False and then apply False.elim. This is the equivalent, in a human proof, of saying "I don't have to address this situation, because it can never arise".
But it can be true that the premise defining the impossible case makes it very easy to "prove" the goal directly. And that's allowed too. The proof will still be just as valid if you map a logical path from a premise that can never be true to an inevitable consequence of that premise. But it's less informative and it lowers the quality of the proof. You may do it anyway because it's easier. This is the equivalent of saying "I don't know whether this situation can ever come up or not, but if it does I do know how to address it".
It would be nice to do the explicit proof by contradiction whenever possible. But in the general case it may be very far from obvious that a contradiction is possible.
I read your comment as claiming that if you can prove "false premise => goal", you can also prove "false premise => explicit contradiction", and I don't think this makes sense as a practical test. It's true in some sense, but discovering the proof of an explicit contradiction may be many orders of magnitude harder than discovering the proof of the goal. And in particular, I don't think it is necessarily the case that you will be able to prove a contradiction by simplifying the proof. You may need to add significant complexity.
Comment by eru 10 hours ago
Comment by rramadass 8 hours ago
Finally, you can export your proofs from Lean and have them re-verified by other independently developed theorem provers/proof checkers.
To get an idea of what is involved in a Theorem Prover see;
Introduction to Automated Theorem Provers - https://pqnelson.github.io/2020/03/27/automated-theorem-prov...
Towards a simple theorem prover - https://medium.com/@maiavictor/towards-a-simple-theorem-prov...
Comment by u1hcw9nx 11 hours ago
Comment by TMWNN 12 hours ago
A similar rule existed for the 100-year Wolfskehl prize established in 1906 for solving Fermat's last theorem; two years after publication.
Comment by tristanj 14 hours ago
The statement is so sterile they don't even mention who solved it. The word "OpenAI" doesn't appear at all.
Comment by mi_lk 12 hours ago
Comment by lanyard-textile 10 hours ago
It's easy to get caught in the details of today. Our skepticism, our distrust, our loathing. For people, for companies.
This is a nice pull in the other direction, a silver lining. In the grand scheme of things, we're solving these frontier problems: Somebody did it and that's amazing.
That's what it was all about when this started of in 2000.
Comment by 47484848 8 hours ago
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Comment by minimaxir 14 hours ago
Comment by num42 14 hours ago
Keyword: New Technologies
Comment by stevefan1999 13 hours ago
Comment by jhrmnn 6 hours ago
Comment by bananaflag 8 hours ago
Comment by Planktonne 10 hours ago
Possibly because of the ongoing debate about who actually deserves credit.
Comment by jtpmath 12 hours ago
Comment by dang 2 hours ago
OpenAI’s Navier-Stokes release included a Lean 4 formal proof - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49650326 - Sept 2026 (179 comments)
More questions about whether researchers can trust OpenAI with unpublished math - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49639408 - Sept 2026 (813 comments)
The Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49621697 - Sept 2026 (237 comments)
Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49616968 - Sept 2026 (420 comments)
On the Navier–Stokes Millennium Prize Problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49613262 - Sept 2026 (1134 comments)
Navier-Stokes – Tristan Buckmaster [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49605915 - Sept 2026 (827 comments)
Comment by swyx 14 hours ago
Comment by DrBenCarson 14 hours ago
That “apparently” feels load-bearing
Comment by qwja8176 5 hours ago
Comment by pred_ 1 hour ago
Comment by drexlspivey 13 hours ago
Comment by thih9 11 hours ago
Comment by da_chicken 11 hours ago
The purpose is to announce that they are aware of the claims of a solution, not to announce that a solution has been accepted. They're waiting on the required two year timeline before announcing whether or not the solution is accepted. Their writing reflects that they are explicitly NOT accepting a solution until then.
Comment by tgv 13 hours ago
Comment by Zarathustra30 11 hours ago
Personally, I use the word "interrogate" when I want to question an idea without implying I want to discredit it.
Comment by bmacho 11 hours ago
You interrogate a proof.
Comment by andsoitis 11 hours ago
Comment by thih9 11 hours ago
Comment by tim333 3 hours ago
Comment by 93po 2 hours ago
Comment by Stevvo 4 hours ago
Comment by andsoitis 1 hour ago
Humans have always tried to make sense (comprehend) the world around us. The methods have become more rigorous, but the idea of understanding less in order to advance civilization is a truly weird idea.
Comment by alain94040 5 hours ago
Comment by vouaobrasil 5 hours ago
Comment by aeve890 5 hours ago
Very on brand with using AI for everything.
Comment by tristanj 14 hours ago
1) The solution must be published in a qualifying outlet, i.e. a peer-reviewed math journal. Publishing on your own website (which is what OpenAI did) or posting arXiv does not count.
2) At least two full years must pass after publication in a qualifying journal, before CMI will even consider evaluating it. The intent is to give the maths community time to scrutinize the solution.
Realistically, they'll be eligible for a prize ~2.5 years from now, or around 2029.
Comment by u1hcw9nx 11 hours ago
While the scandal is still unraveling, it seems that OpenAI did a rush job to steal other mathematicians' thunder and finish the proof first.
OpenAI released a statement that their work does not relate to the work of the other team, but it clearly does. They use the same niche smooth-forcing mechanism. Altman and Bubeck claim that because the proof used different scaling parameters and analytical steps, it's not related, but it seems that nobody else agrees. Oh, and OpenAI's Bubeck tried to threaten Buckmaster (mathematician working on the proof).
This brings nothing but shame for OpenAI.
Comment by tristanj 9 hours ago
Tristan + Levent: 3D incompressible Euler with forcing
OpenAI: 3D incompressible Euler without forcing
OpenAI: Navier-Stokes with forcing
No one: Navier-Stokes without forcing
Euler equations = Navier-Stokes without viscosity. Forcing means external force. Absence of viscosity and presence of external force make blowup easier to construct.Tristan+Levent ticked the weakest case, OpenAI ticked the two next weakest, then the final case is unsolved. Only the last two are eligible for the Millennium Prize. The Navier-Stokes general case remains unsolved.
Navier-Stokes has an extra viscosity term compared to Euler, which makes the problem noticeably harder to find a blowup. They are not the same problem.
2) The approach both chose to use (by Luis and Diego) was published in 2023 and is included in every frontier model's training dataset. An AI model could independently choose the same route as Luis and Diego, without access to Buckmaster's work.
3) You mischaracterized OpenAI's statement. They issued a blanket denial on using Buckmaster's Codex data from after July 3.
"We can say categorically that it is impossible for Dr. Buckmaster’s Codex prompts over the last two months to have influenced the system in any way, including training. After investigating, we can say with full confidence that no user inputs past July 3rd could have influenced this system in any way.”
July 3 was the training cutoff date for the model that solved Navier-Stokes. No user data after that date influenced the model.
4) Buckmaster and Alpöge found their blow-up for 3D incompressible Euler with forcing on August 15 https://cims.nyu.edu/~tristanb/statement.pdf , over a month after the model training cutoff point. They stated they did not have real progress prior to this point.
Comment by elteto 6 hours ago
“There does not seem to be anything in principle preventing the methods from extending all the way to Navier-Stokes, and there is even a non-negligible chance that the forcing term could be eliminated entirely, although there are an enormous number of technical difficulties that would ensue in implementing that program. At this point, I would not be surprised if one could batter out such an extension by pouring an enormous amount of compute and AI assistance at such a task…”
Pouring infinite AI resources into it is exactly what OpenAI did.
Comment by atakan_gurkan 8 hours ago
Comment by tristanj 7 hours ago
Comment by roosterIllusi0n 2 hours ago
It is laughable to claim they are not datamining users when datamining users is their strongest advantage over open models.
In the end, there is no reason to care about openAI or credit them with anything. Tools are not attributed, people are.
The best solution is for universities to be universities and provide llms for students and staff to use. Any university allowing students to use cloud based AI has failed.
Comment by nicce 6 hours ago
Is Altman even mathematican these days?
Comment by ngruhn 14 hours ago
The Poincaré conjecture guy also broke that rule. They wanted to give him the prize anyway but he refused. OpenAI announced they would also not claim the prize.
Looks like no one wants this prize lol
Comment by ncruces 11 hours ago
The prize was offered to him in 2010, after multiple others had digested his work and published elsewhere.
Comment by kzrdude 10 hours ago
Comment by tristanj 13 hours ago
Comment by seanhunter 12 hours ago
Here’s what Terrence Tao had to say about it https://youtu.be/vuT-2_e4NHg
Edit to add: The fun part about the RH since people mentioned lean in a sibling thread is that in lean’s mathlib4 there is verified statement of the Riemann Hypothesis with a comment that says something like “instantiating an object of this type will lead to a prize of a million dollars”
Comment by famouswaffles 12 hours ago
AI has and will improve at a much greater rate than human mathematicians. So it's really a question of if AI gets good enough to tackle it before any human does. It doesn't look like humans will be solving it anytime soon but where will AI be in 2 years ?
Hell, it looks like at least one other result will be announced soon too.
Comment by black_knight 11 hours ago
I don’t know the details of RH, it might very well be solved soon, but it could also be impossible or just so difficult that even orders of magnitude more intelligent AI can’t solve it even.
If it is impossible to prove, it might be possible to prove that it is impossible to prove, or that itself might be difficult or impossible…
Comment by famouswaffles 5 hours ago
Comment by xanderlewis 12 hours ago
Comment by famouswaffles 12 hours ago
Comment by fragmede 11 hours ago
Comment by famouswaffles 5 hours ago
Better obviously means better, like how they became better than they were 6 months and a year ago.
Comment by vdomi 3 hours ago
Comment by xanderlewis 11 hours ago
Comment by fc417fc802 11 hours ago
I'm surprised perelman turned it down though. Seems straightforward enough to offer half of it to the other guy if you feel strongly about it.
Comment by jtpmath 12 hours ago
Comment by tancop 13 hours ago
Looks like even a blog post is good enough, they just need to do the review by themselves.
Comment by tristanj 13 hours ago
Before consideration, a proposed solution must be published in a refereed mathematics journal of world-wide repute, and it must also have general acceptance in the mathematics community two years after that publication. Following this two-year waiting period, the [Clay Mathematics Institute] will decide whether a solution merits detailed consideration.
There's no option for CMI discretion. They probably rewrote the rules to avoid another Poincaré conjecture situation, where the paper was only published on arXiv and not in a mathematics journal.[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20000622023328/http://www.clayma...
Comment by noodletheworld 13 hours ago
> The rules governing the prizes describe the process for evaluating what has been achieved and for assigning credit. The process is deliberately unhurried, but we will provide updates.
I think “you don’t get anything straight away for rushing your AI into the maths problems, not even credit” aligns pretty fairly with what the fields medalists are concerned with.
Comment by vatsachak 13 hours ago
OpenAI and Anthropic might have 3 millennium problems by December
Comment by crowfunder 10 hours ago
Comment by tristanj 9 hours ago
OpenAI needs to solve another to shut down the (baseless) plagiarism allegations. Anthropic wants blood because OpenAI sniped the last one from one of Anthropic's researchers.
It's a matter of pride for both companies. More results will come out soon.
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 7 hours ago
Presumably the people that OpenAI and Anthropic are trying to impress with these trophy kills are potential IPO investors, but I would have thought investors would also be concerned about the growing public backlash against AI.
Comment by famouswaffles 4 hours ago
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 4 hours ago
Imagine if they had handled this differently and these results - still using OpenAI models - were coming from the math community. How much better the PR would have been - AI helping math/science rather than yet another story of AI harming society in some way.
No doubt this is what they were at least partially aiming for - not just shooting a trophy animal to brag about, but also being seen to advance math/science, a la AlphaFold, not just take all our jobs and enshittify society with deep fakes and AI slop. But, they heavily misjudged.
Comment by famouswaffles 3 hours ago
Unlike AlphaFold, this technology has the potential to wholesale replace the entire profession. You're never going to get anything more than bad PR from that group as the threat looms.
Over 3 Billion images gets generated per week via OpenAI chatgpt image models. None of the poor PR from artists on AI generated images even remotely matters.
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago
IMO giving a hypothetical AlphaMath to mathematicians, the same way Google gave AlphaFold to research chemists/biologists, would have resulted in far better PR, and the profit opportunity of attempting to replace the jobs of either research group is minimal.
It's downright bizarre the way companies like Anthropic (primarily), and to a lesser extent OpenAI and anyone else, are themselves pushing the narrative of this tech may kill you, will take all your jobs, etc. That may all happen, unfortunately, but being aware of that possibility you'd think these companies would be a bit more mindful of their messaging and behavior, not just go out with a scorched earth approach of "well, they are going to hate us anyway".
Comment by vatsachak 2 hours ago
I actually don't think that current AI can replace any profession that requires human interaction over many weeks. This is because imo they lack long term planning abilities
Comment by famouswaffles 9 minutes ago
Okay...you understand that are training for this and it has gotten much much better at doing this over the years ? You should probably also understand that it doesn't need to be able to do this to drastically cull the profession ?
Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 1 hour ago
For example, how do you reconcile return-to-work mandates with the idea that companies are going to be happy with faceless remote workers? What does the boss do when the shit hits the fan and he would have yelled at people about the need to work all weekend, but instead all he has to yell at is an LLM that tells him he's "right to push back", that it promises not to delete the production database next time (except it will, because it can't learn), and that it could care less about being fired because it's just a calculator?
Comment by vatsachak 48 minutes ago
Imagine that paper-clip maximizing happening over millions of tasks.
I think we are just entering the LLM + Human era.
Comment by jltsiren 11 hours ago
Comment by glimshe 10 hours ago
Comment by holowoodman 10 hours ago
Yes, but it took far less than using your meat brain to prove the Navier-Stokes Clay problem.
Comment by glimshe 8 hours ago
I assume that the mathematicians outside Anthropic were hoping to publish an actual human-understandable paper. That could be one way to draw line: you can use AI, but you must also have an intelligible explanation at the end.
Comment by unknown-unknown 14 hours ago
However, after reading the open letter signed by 25 Fields Medalists, I became quite concerned. It feels like the mathematical world is changing very rapidly, almost overnight.
I used to think that before AI, you could spend your entire lifetime working on some of the hardest problems in mathematics. If you were an introvert or someone who enjoyed solitude, all you really needed was a pencil, some paper, and an eraser. You could spend years thinking about a problem, and if you were lucky enough to make a breakthrough, it would be your own journey.
Now AI is changing that. I wonder what this means for the kind of mathematics that people have traditionally done.
Mathematics has given us so many stories of lonely geniuses and their passions, people like Andrew Wiles, Grigori Perelman, and Yitang Zhang. Their stories are interesting because they show how deeply personal mathematics can be. They spent years working on problems because they were genuinely interested in them.
I am worried that we might slowly lose some of that side of mathematics as AI becomes more powerful. I do not think change is necessarily bad, but I think it is worth thinking about what mathematics should be in the future and whether it can still remain a deeply personal pursuit of curiosity and understanding.
Comment by reasonableklout 13 hours ago
I hope that pure mathematics research can retain a strongly human component forever. It would sadden me immensely for human understanding of our mathematical world to wither and die, and for us to become ignorant consumers of wonders beyond our understanding just because our robots can do it better than we can. As far as applied research goes, I hope we will always be able to understand what we want to, but I have less qualms about becoming more scalable and efficient.
Comment by trhway 13 hours ago
all this fantasy books with magic artifacts should have mentally prepared us. Time to study the prompts Potter was giving to his magic wand.
After all, one of the main work the top AI companies are doing rigth now is developing AI to further develop AI. After several layers of AI developing AI we probably wouldn't be able to understand much there.
Comment by drexlspivey 13 hours ago
Currently 0/2 Millenium problem solvers claimed the prize money so clearly money is not their motivation for tackling the problem.
Comment by joedwin 7 hours ago
Openai is bringing machine gun to competition that used only knife and pistol.
Comment by KeplerBoy 9 hours ago
OpenAI spent many multiples of the prize money in just a few days to get there and even if one solves a problem in the traditional way, that person is most likely already an accomplished professor at a reputable university where a million dollars doesn't mean as much as the eternal fame that comes with it.
Comment by IshKebab 8 hours ago
It is a large prize if you're just an academic.
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Comment by kaffekaka 12 hours ago
If AI can do superhuman math that allows better medicines, cleaner energy etc that is great. But if AI replaces humans in all the creative and intellectual fields that is not only a loss of jobs but also a loss of deeply meaningful activities. This is waved away but I think that is mistaken.
What I fear is really the growing notion that "people shouldn't do math/art/music because machine do it better and cheaper".
Comment by fragmede 11 hours ago
Comment by tzs 6 hours ago
Yes, you can make problems arbitrarily complex. But the prize problems were chosen not just because the solutions appear likely to be very complex (the problem statements aren't necessarily inherently complex--there is a way to restate the Riemann hypothesis that a junior high school student could easily understand, which I'll give below).
They were chosen because they were important problems that mathematicians really wanted solved, top people had worked on them for a long time and progress stalled a long time ago, and it seemed likely that solving them would require major breakthroughs.
Those kind of problems can be discouraging. Enough people who are probably better than you have spent enough time failing to solve them that realistically most researchers are going to focus all their efforts on something they are likely to make progress on.
A nice prize can get more people to at least work on them as side projects.
Here's that restatement of the Riemann hypothesis I mentioned.
The Riemann hypothesis is that the non-trivial zeros of the function ζ(s) occur on the line 1/2 + yi.
ζ(s) is 1/1^s + 1/2^2 + 1/3^s + ... when s is a complex number whose real part is greater than 1, and defined everywhere else except s = 1 by a process called analytic continuation. The trivial zeros are at s = -2, -4, -6, ... .
For a mathematician, or a non-mathematician who has taken complex analysis and hasn't forgotten much of that, that is not too complex a definition. For anyone else the first reaction is probably "Trivial zeros? How the heck does that thing even have zeros? And if it does how the heck can it have zeros at any negative integers! It is obviously infinity at every negative integer!!!".
Here's a different hypothesis that turns out to be exactly equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis. They are either both true of both false, so resolving one of them resolves the other.
Let H(n) = 1 + 1/2 + ... + 1/n for all positive integers n. These are called the harmonic numbers.
Let S(n) = the sum of the positive integer factors of n for all positive integers n. For example S(4) = 1 + 2 + 4, S(6) = 1 + 2 + 3 + 6, and S(17) = 1 + 17.
Hypothesis: S(n) <= H(n) + exp(H(n)) log(H(n)) with equality only when n = 1.
The proof that this is equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis is here [1].
Comment by trhway 13 hours ago
...
>Now AI is changing that. I wonder what this means for the kind of mathematics that people have traditionally done.
Mathematics becomes engineering. I think it is great and long overdue. Saying that as a Math PhD dropout :) Of course like manual craftsmen had to adapt to Industrial Revolution, the same would need to be done by the mathematicians. And other scientists too.
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Comment by HarHarVeryFunny 7 hours ago
Clearly the real-world cannot "blow-up" - real-world water vortices do not reach infinite velocity, etc.
The point of having Navier-Stokes as a Millennium prize was to hopefully generate new mathematics and techniques along the way, and auto-generating a sprawling AI-slop proof or millions of lines of Lean does not accomplish that result.
Clearly OpenAI has no interest in the math itself - to them this was just a trophy animal to shoot and stuff. I would be very surprised if they now helped analyze the proof and try to extract the mathematical value out of it, and this would obviously require outside help who are probably not inclined to help OpenAI math-wash their behavior.
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Comment by scrollaway 10 hours ago
I try not to go down the route of “hn was better before!” but… jeez, do better, people. What happened to this community, there used to be some effort to not be bottom-barrel like this.
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Comment by perching_aix 5 hours ago
- "yeah we know"
- "looking into it"
- "will ping you"
- "might take a while though"
+ preemptive linguistic cushioning in case they feel socially (politically) compelled enough to forbid clanker proofs in their solution acceptance criteria, or in case they decide against conceding to such pressuring
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Comment by skayvr 12 hours ago
At this point, how can we tell whether AI is improving or it's just reappropriating its users work? It's probably a bit of both. But still, thick milky.
Comment by nearbuy 11 hours ago
OpenAI's proof is substantially different and I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. The accusation is that they used the same avenue of attack, and it's an uncommon one, and that makes it suspicious that they may have taken the idea.
Comment by pred_ 1 hour ago
This has a few practical implications: First of all, if you are in the target group of the marketing material, be wary. While these things can do non-trivial stuff, the amount of magic is being grossly over-stated. But also, when several of the big results have indeed been reappropriating the work of others; when the companies fail to provide proper attribution (the NS case in particular is laughable) and present the results as the models' own work, that's plagiarism.
Comment by gps372 13 hours ago
Comment by robotpepi 1 hour ago
I'm a professional mathematician and these tools are not available for me. So not happy about that!
(just to be clear, I'm not anti AI, I'm just criticising the shallowness of your comment)
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Comment by gps372 12 hours ago
Aren't they already using computers, mobiles, calculators, etc. already?
Comment by kaffekaka 12 hours ago
The Startrek future is still a long way out.
Comment by Bluestein 11 hours ago
⎿ You've hit your session limit · resets 2:52am (123°24′W Etc/GMT+8)
/upgrade to increase your usage limit.Comment by ButlerianJihad 12 hours ago
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/World_War_III
World War III was the last of Earth's three world wars, lasting from approximately 2026 to 2053. The conflict involved nuclear cataclysm as well as genocide and eco-terrorism. The post-atomic horror in the aftermath persisted as late as 2079.
The war was preceded by the Eugenics Wars and the Second Civil War, all of which were sometimes regarded as parts of a single escalating conflict. It resulted in the deaths of some 30% of the Human population, at least six hundred million people, and the extinction of six hundred thousand species of animals and plants. By the end, most of the major cities had been destroyed and there were few governments left.Comment by fragmede 11 hours ago
The math nerd in me has to point out that this means there was only 2 billion humans for 30% to be 600 million (though it does say at least). Currently we have 8 billion humans on this planet or so. There must have been a culling before WWIII in their universe that they failed to mention.
Comment by user43928 12 hours ago
DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731 scores 89% and costs $0.02 per task.
If we apply the same factor to the guesstimated API price of $20M for this problem, we arrive at $57.
Real cost is a fraction of the API price. Although the internal model might have a higher API price than the ~$19.5M I estimated based on Astra's pricing.
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Comment by kaffekaka 13 hours ago
They did not do it for the money obviously, but for the PR, that much everyone must agree on.
Comment by SiempreViernes 5 hours ago
Doing it for the PR is still just doing it for the money, only they have a much bigger pile in mind.