I Fixed a Tractor Using John Deere's Self-Repair Service. Farmers Aren't Sold

Posted by sbulaev 1 day ago

Counter31Comment34OpenOriginal

Comments

Comment by JohnFen 20 hours ago

> The agricultural machine manufacturer has a subscription service that lets owners repair their own equipment. Why is barely anybody using it?

Because it doesn't address the actual problem.

Comment by RajT88 1 hour ago

The problem the company has is not making enough money. It addresses that problem.

The funny thing about that problem is that it is unsolvable.

Comment by lazide 21 minutes ago

That’s the companies problem.

The farmers problem is the company is squeezing too much money out of them.

There is no single solution to both problems.

Comment by 14 minutes ago

Comment by nilamo 1 hour ago

Requiring a subscription violates the right to repair. Even for backwater places where the right to repair isn't enshrined in law (like the usa), people still know what the right to repair is, and often refuse to use a paid service what what ought to have been included in the base price.

Comment by Aboutplants 1 hour ago

A subscription for the right to repair your own machine seems completely insane to me. How is this a thing that is allowed?

Comment by werdnapk 1 hour ago

A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay.

Tesla for example lets you pay to access their diagnostic software, so why is John Deere the bad guy here?

Comment by jchw 1 hour ago

Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys.

And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.

Comment by arrowsmith 51 minutes ago

If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business.

Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.

Comment by phyzix5761 23 minutes ago

Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.

Comment by Eisenstein 14 minutes ago

So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.

Comment by geoduck14 15 minutes ago

Like others have said: Tesla is the bath guy here. I'm pretty sure most people are focused on the other ways Tesla has been fing around that they just haven't gotten this far down the list.

Also, there's something special about tractors. Their owners (farmers) are both willing and capable of repairing tractors, in general, so John Deere is demonized for taking that ability away. Where as Tesla's owners are comfortable not changing their own oil, so "less" was taken away. (Yes, I know Tesla doesn't have engine oil, don't get hung up on that)

Comment by nvme0n1p1 50 minutes ago

When I bought my current car, it came with an owners manual--for free!!

I can grab any data I want from the OBD port. The hardware was cheap, the software to use it is, again, free.

I'm not excited about this brave new world where you have to pay a subscription fee to plug a cable into a device you own and interact with it, and even less excited there are people here defending the idea.

Comment by itsrobreally 15 minutes ago

You may not be aware but there are a lot of proprietary PIDs on your OBD2 bus you can't interpret without specialized software - you can get like oil pressure and temperature, but not say, shift points or anything the manufacturer doesn't think you should see. True right to repair would mean all of the PIDs get documented and there is a marketplace where I can purchase software or documentation without having to be a certified brand X mechanic.

Comment by nvme0n1p1 2 minutes ago

Yes and I'm just pushing back against GP who seems to think gatekeeping that access is a good thing. And it's still way better than John Deere who (according to TFA), when the tractor detects that some wires are disconnected, wants you to pay $195 to find out which ones.

I'd love to move towards a world where owners can access everything, flash the firmware in the headlamps, etc. But all I can do as an individual is vote with my wallet and avoid the 2020s computers-on-wheels.

Comment by loopies 37 minutes ago

What you want is the service manual. Owner manual should be implicit. OBD port can work for some cars, for some of the data. But other cars do have specialized gear they require to either access either reset some stuff in some of the car's computers.

Comment by somehnguy 23 minutes ago

Yeah the owners and service manuals are two very very different things. You won't be performing much maintenance with the owners manual besides the absolute basics, like checking your oil.

The cheap OBD2 readers lack the vast majority of data and tools you would want to use for service as well.

There are aftermarket options but most manufacturers want you to subscribe to their service tools - often charged per monthly plus an additional a fee per VIN it touches. These cost in the hundreds to thousands. It can be pretty frustrating as a shadetree mechanic.

Comment by lazide 19 minutes ago

Notably, some vehicles like the Toyota Highlander you can’t even figure out when you need to change the spark plugs, let alone what kind of spark plugs you need from the owners manual.

Theoretically, they are to be replaced at 120k miles (!!) but they won’t even tell you that in the owners manual.

Insane.

Comment by somehnguy 4 minutes ago

It is, yeah. The owners manual for my current vehicle seems to mostly contain walkthroughs about the infotainment and other tech features. The section related to maintenance is tiny in comparison.

You're probably aware of this already but luckily a lot of service manuals can be found online in PDF form.

Somewhat related but I was going through an older relatives belongings not too long ago to help cleanup and found a bunch of old manuals for various household things. The detail included in them was beautiful to see - full wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, etc.

Comment by DuncanCoffee 49 minutes ago

Because in agriculture you are absolutely expecting to be able to repair stuff yourself.

I work on a project related to it and was absolutely surprised at how the company gave instructions to the clients to help them fix their machines (stuff I wouldn't be able to do myself).

Having a non-working machine can mean big $$ lost everyday.

Comment by RobotToaster 1 hour ago

Real life isn't as simple as the one in fairy tales, there's usually more than one villain.

Comment by voxl 54 minutes ago

Whataboutism. Two evils are still evil.

Comment by fwlr 19 minutes ago

A more accurate title would be “Farmers Aren’t Bought”, as in “bought by John Deere”, like this author is.

Comment by alpaca128 56 minutes ago

The term "Self-Repair Service" already sounds so wrong.

Comment by pedrorissato 13 minutes ago

Thank you John Deere... I just miss the "sponsored" next to the article title.

Comment by AShyFig 55 minutes ago

I've always been a bit confused about the right to repair debate, especially as it concerns John Deere equipment. I don't own any "new" John Deere products, but I do have a few pieces circa ~2010. Perhaps my experience is out of date.

Here's how it's always worked for me:

1. A code comes up on the computer.

2. A. The problem is self evident. Or;

2. B. I search online and find the problem. Or;

2. C. I search online and find the diagnostics manual, which I use to find the problem. Then I have diagnostics manual pdf forever, and can use this in the future.

3. A. I search online and find the parts diagram. Or;

3. B. I search my dealers website and find the parts diagram.

4. I order the part.

5. I install the part.

Has something changed with newer equipment that prevents farmers from doing this?

Comment by bri3d 31 minutes ago

Newer Deere equipment has a lot of components that have to be adapted using DSA - turbo actuators, various hydraulic sensors, various suspension leveling sensors, fuel injectors, interior displays, and anything SCR related are the big ones. Basically, any sensor that needs a calibration step or triggers an emissions code, or a few intentionally vehicle locked modules (ECM).

Comment by AShyFig 13 minutes ago

Interesting. I just finished with a thorny hydraulics problem on a 9870 Combine. It turned out to be a faulty sensor. Part of my troubleshooting involved buying a new sensor, and swapping out each sensor in the system one by one with the new unit until I was sure they were all working correctly. No calibration needed. When i do need to calibrate a system i can do it all from the onboard computer.

What a systemic downgrade in capabilities.

Comment by codenesium 36 minutes ago

The parts have to be unlocked with like a DRM system to work.

Comment by 1 hour ago

Comment by 27183 1 hour ago

Why would you pay extra for some website the company could just take away from you on a whim? I have the bound paper repair manuals for my 1998 Dodge truck, my 1995 Toyota, and my 2002 Kubota tractor. Nobody can arbitrarily take those away. Why can't companies these days just print a shop manual and be done with it?

Comment by loopies 32 minutes ago

>Why can't companies these days just print a shop manual and be done with it?

They would be losing money without overpriced repairs. That's why they lobby so hard against right to repair.

Even with some kind of right to repair it still seems they're trying to keep you hooked on their resources.

But as you said, service manual + schematics would be great for some people. But companies will fight tooth and nail against it. They lose control over obsoleting older products.

Comment by micromacrofoot 30 minutes ago

they want to lock you in to oem parts because otherwise people might use their tractor for 30 years before buying a new one

same reason car dealerships want you to only go to them for maintenance

Comment by lazide 17 minutes ago

Not just eom parts, also OEM service.

Which is a huge problem when you live in bum fuck nowhere like many farmers.

Comment by HNSheldonImpost 1 hour ago

[dead]

Comment by mindslight 3 minutes ago

[delayed]

Comment by Simulacra 1 hour ago

This article seems a little condescending. They are neither a mechanic nor a farmer, as they say, and from there it just sort of goes off the rails.

Comment by cyanydeez 40 minutes ago

this, but for your entire business, brought to you by Anthropic and OpenAI.