Scientists observe Einstein's gravity in the quantum world
Posted by mudil 4 days ago
Comments
Comment by MathMonkeyMan 1 day ago
I found it hard to believe that they accounted for other forces precisely enough that they could attribute the phase change to gravity, but this is beyond me so I trust the result.
At first I thought "they showed that you can measure a particle falling in gravity," which seemed dumb because we already know that particles fall in gravity. But they showed that you can measure a single (aggregate) particle falling in gravity, which is pretty cool because if gravity is quantum then that means that they observed an interaction between the graviton and their rubidium atom.
Comment by fr2029 1 day ago
Comment by Zarathustra30 1 day ago
You don't need evidence to support a premise.
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Comment by simiones 15 hours ago
The only way this statement could be false would be to have quantum gravity but no particle that mediates this interaction - which doesn't seem plausible almost by definition.
Comment by gps372 14 hours ago
That's quite an exotic claim! If Sound and Temperature can emerge without a sound particle or temperature particle, why is it not plausible for gravity to exists without graviton?
Though, I get it that mainstream view from physicists is Graviton is the most 'likely' cause, if the gravity is proven to be quantized. But even they would have the humility to accept that this is a theory yet to be proven and observed!
Comment by simiones 14 hours ago
A: If gravity is quantum, then (B) there must be some particle-like think that we call a graviton that mediates the interactions, and then seeing a rubidium atom fall must have been an interaction with this particle.
not A: If gravity is not quantum, then they are making no claims about a graviton.
If you think gravity is not quantum, then you go to the "not A" branch, and they make no claims about that branch - so there is no contradiction with their IF.
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Comment by TheOtherHobbes 16 hours ago
Maybe there's something subtle in the details which explains why it isn't that, but it certainly looks adjacent to it - although maybe not deliberately?
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Comment by MarkusQ 1 day ago
(He's listed as V. Vedral on the Tardigrade paper you linked, and it's more common to use last names in this context.)
Comment by pjungwir 1 day ago
Comment by EA-3167 1 day ago
More critically though the study gets into how they used a reference wave packet to establish a stationary baseline for the interferometer. Assuming the experiment is sufficiently isolated to reduce noise below the necessary threshold this can work in principle.
Comment by WaxProlix 1 day ago
Can you give me some examples? I guess I'm thinking lead barriers or a Bose Einstein condensate but curious what you mean here.
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Comment by hoppp 1 day ago
if quantum objects can fall and multiple quantum waves can occupy the same space, then why doesn't everything always collapse into a single point?
Why does it only happen in black holes and outside of that quantum waves instead create emergent systems instead of just collapsing together?
Does high gravitational force nullify emergence in space/time?
Might be a stupid question. I don't study this subject much.
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Comment by EA-3167 1 day ago
Electrons (as an example) experience Coulomb pressure (charge repulsion), but also a quantum statistical pressure called Fermi Degeneracy pressure related to their kinetic energy, AND ultimately the Pauli Exclusion Principle (Identical Fermions cannot occupy the same state, but higher momentum states take more energy to reach naturally so this creates resistance to collapse). If you want to learn more about this you can get a lot of mileage out of some reading on Fermi-Dirac statistics, the Pauli Exclusion Principle, and degeneracy pressure. Now this is just using electrons as a model, but ultimately all of the above can be overcome by gravity. When it does you still can't have electrons disobeying the rules, but the potential energy barrier to merge electrons and protons into neutrons is overcome. THEN you have neutron degeneracy pressure, and in theory after that you have a black hole (spacetime singularity surrounded by an event horizon.
However... that may not be the case. It is true that observation has confirmed the existence of objects that are so dense and massive they must have an event horizon, but beyond that we have no way of direct observation, right now (even in principle). A lot of people believe this indicates that a singularity doesn't really exist; it's the usual lesson when a singularity appears in your math: your math is wrong. In the end maybe there's another sort of degeneracy pressure from quarks or something even more fundamental like strings that ultimately prevents final collapse to a true singularity.
ed: typos
Comment by hoppp 1 day ago
I assumed they can occupy the same space due to superposition principle, as waves could stack and modulate each other, sort of like wave A and wave B occupying the same space could produce a wave A+B
So a singular point would be the sum of all waves occupying the space.
But maybe gravity or spacetime itself is a recursive function and black holes are functions without a base case and there is no singular point, only non-terminating recursion.
Some ideas to funnel into AI so I can entertain myself hah
Comment by robochat 21 hours ago
In a black hole though … who knows
Comment by simiones 14 hours ago
Now, say we have an experiment where two different sources each fire one electron in some direction; and say the electrons have the same spin and other properties except for their initial position and momentum. We can meaningfully say that for a certain location between the two sources there is some > 0 probability for either electron to be there, so the amplitude of each electron's wavefunction at that position is > 0. However, that doesn't mean we can ever find both electrons at that same postion at the same time: the individual wavefunctions are just parts of the two-electron system's wavefunction, and, per the Pauli exclusion principle, that one will be 0 for any state of the form "electron A at position x and electron B at position x". So, for any position, you can find either electron there, but never both.
An additional wrinkle is that this only applies for two identical electrons. If the electrons have different spins, then they can actually be found at the same location at the same time. You can have a spin-up and a spin-down electron in the same place at the same time, but not two spin-up electrons. This is the fundamental property of fermions. However, you can have any number of identical photons at the same location - that's the fundamental property of bosons.
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Comment by qsera 18 hours ago
Can you tell me why it is non-sense?
We, through our senses perceive a world. This world we try to understand using physics. But these perceptions itself stands on top of consciousness. So consciousness is at least, as real as the world that physics conventionally tries to reason about. It could be even more fundamental, because you can have only consciousness in this universe, but still could sense a whole universe with "things" inside it. But without consciousness, and just a universe with "things", there is no "sensing"...
Point is, physics should include study of consciousness...
Comment by yreg 20 hours ago
We need physicists to come up with and develop novel ideas to consider no matter how many of them might be entirely wrong.
Comment by thrance 18 hours ago
Grossly simplifying: he is a dualist, he wants to reconcile his belief in the soul and his physicist's materialist view of biology, so he resorts to putting the source of consciousness in quantum phenomenas, and seeks to prove that they occur in the brain. I disagree that there's an immaterial soul, I disagree that it puppets the material universe through quantum phenomenas, and I disagree that there are important quantum phenomenas in the brain. Most physicists are with me on these.
Comment by qsera 18 hours ago
I think he should look for consciousness as the source of quantum phenomena. Not the other way around. But as he is a physicist, all nails looks like a physics problem.
It is the same situation where people might have struggled to explain the heavenly observation using an earth centric model. Once you invert the wrong premise that you consider as fundamental, the answer, previously so elusive, becomes trivial...
Comment by yreg 17 hours ago
Because I hardly think so.
This is not like alternative medicine where there is harm for people who don't follow the mainstream. And I stress again that Penrose (in the interviews I saw) doesn't actually claim that he absolutely has to be right.
Comment by thrance 16 hours ago
No of course not, people should be free to discuss and believe in dualism. What I find regrettable, is how often Penrose's name is invoked in an appeal to authority, as if his past (and very valuable) contributions to physics were enough to make him right on everything, including this subject.
Ultimately, I believe dualism is wrong, and I believe I have good reasons to think so. My previous comment was simply my attempt at deconstructing Penrose's argument, participating in the ever-ongoing popular debate.
Comment by jacquesm 15 hours ago
That may be so, but just the mention of Penrose's name in the context of something else caused you to start a whole subthread that had nothing to do with the subject.
Comment by thrance 14 hours ago
> "Any explanation by Roger Penrose is bound to be good"
Is something wrong with my original comment?
Comment by yreg 16 hours ago
Comment by GoblinSlayer 19 hours ago
Comment by yreg 18 hours ago
That does not follow at all.
Comment by GoblinSlayer 18 hours ago
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Comment by yreg 14 hours ago
I don't know Penrose's view deeply enough to defend it further (view which I for the record do not share).
Comment by GoblinSlayer 12 hours ago
Comment by j16sdiz 13 hours ago
Many phenomenon emerge from randomness with very high probability just because the law of large number.
Comment by GoblinSlayer 12 hours ago
Comment by randomImmigrant 1 day ago
Damn Deepak Chopra and his ilk of idiots for making any conversation of quantum mechanics and biology tinged with pseudoscience. Hopefully we’ll keep getting experimental evidence as we go that it’s not at all absurd to consider quantum effects in biology.
That said, those effects are going to look nothing like sustained coherence for long periods of time.
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Comment by traes 22 hours ago
> The phase of free fall is predicted in a purely quantum manner to have a dependence m/6 g^2T^3/ℏ + gmzT on the free-fall time T, where m is the mass of the object, g is the gravitational acceleration relative to the surface of Earth, and z in the spatial coordinate in the direction of gravity. This prediction follows the calculated phase accumulated by an object accelerating in a linear potential, and has been made starting from almost one hundred years ago by Darwin, Kennard and others.
Apparently the phase shift is derivable from just adding a linear potential term mgz to the Hamiltonian.
Comment by ck2 1 day ago
* https://www.youtube.com/@pbsspacetime/search?query=graviton
Comment by shevy-java 1 day ago
Comment by rhdunn 1 day ago
It doesn't show/prove how general relativity and quantum mechanics interact.
NOTE: The Dirac equation and Quantum Electro Dynamics (QED) unify quantum mechanics and special relativity (non-accelerating frames of reference).
So the remaining piece is either to extend QED/QCD to accelerating frames of reference or to quantize general relativity. That would likely predict the phase shift observed in this experiment.
Comment by pdonis 1 day ago
And more generally the Standard Model, which includes the weak and strong interactions. The SM is a quantum field theory, which, as you say, unifies QM and SR.
> (non-accelerating frames of reference).
No, SR and QFT are not limited to non-accelerating frames. They are limited to small enough regions of spacetime that spacetime curvature is negligible. This experiment is an illustration of that: it compares an accelerated atom with a free-falling atom to show the phase shift between them, and the lab frame in which it is done is accelerated--but the SM and SR work just fine. But the experiment does not show any effects of spacetime curvature.
> the remaining piece is either to extend QED/QCD to accelerating frames of reference
No, that's already done. See above.
> or to quantize general relativity.
That's the big missing piece, yes. We know how to write the QFT of a massless spin-2 field (which is our naive expectation of what a QFT for gravity would look like), and we know that the classical limit of that QFT is the classical GR we have now. But we know that QFT has to be just an effective theory, just like the Standard Model; it can't be the final answer.
> That would likely predict the phase shift observed in this experiment.
The theories we already have (Standard Model + the equivalence principle are all we actually need) are sufficient to predict that. Of course any more comprehensive theory will have to reproduce that prediction, yes.
Comment by rhdunn 20 hours ago
Thus, if you extend QED/QCD/SM in a similar way (thinking of QED/QCD/SM extensions in terms of acceleration and curved space with the equivalence principle in mind) that may lead to a quantized theory of gravity. -- Sir Roger Penrose has a similar idea/thinking [3].
One of the key challenges with quantizing gravity is in how the terms in the expressions resulting from analyzing the Feynman diagram interactions behave [4] which prevent them being renormalized. For electromagnetism you can formulate the terms using the fine structure constant (via the coulomb potential, ħ, and c) which results in successive terms decreasing in value and thus stabilizing to a single value.
For gravity using Newton's relationship between two masses in a similar way to deriving the fine structure constant you get Gm^2/ħc. Applying E=mc^2 gives GE^2/ħc^5. Using the Planck energy constant gives (E/E_p)^2 for the energy coupling strength. This means that unlike electromagnetism, the successive terms in the Feynman diagram analysis grows exponentially instead of decreasing to 0. Thus, this approach to quantization doesn't work for gravity.
Note: you can still use this to analyze quantum gravitational effects at small energies by evaluating to a given number of terms.
[1] https://www.britannica.com/story/how-albert-einstein-develop...
[2] https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/physics/equivalence-...
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQM0OtxvZ-Y "We need to 'gravitise' quantum mechanics, not quantise gravity | Roger Penrose | Full interview"
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTEPm5d6mrI "Why Quantum Gravity Doesn't Work"
Comment by pdonis 3 hours ago
Not being renormalizable actually isn't a problem in itself if you view the theory as an effective theory, valid only up to some energy scale, not beyond that. You can still use the theory to make some predictions, as long as you're careful. But that does mean that the QFT of a massless spin-2 field can't be a fundamental theory of gravity; it can only be an effective theory, that approximates something deeper.
Comment by pdonis 3 hours ago
As I said, this is not correct. Early on, in the first years after Einstein published his papers, there were physicists who believed this (and IIRC Einstein was initially one of them), but that was well over a century ago. We've made a lot of progress since then, and part of that progress is understanding that SR can handle acceleration just fine, as long as spacetime is flat.
> when Einstein considered acceleration as well as gravity via the equivalence principle which lead to GR
The equivalence principle as Einstein first came up with it was actually about free fall. What he called "the happiest thought of my life" was "if a person falls freely, they will not feel their own weight". In modern terminology, we would say that, if you are dealing with a small enough piece of spacetime, you can treat it as flat, even if the spacetime globally is curved. And that means you can use all of the physics of SR in that small piece of spacetime. And that turns out to be a key piece of getting to GR, how to handle spacetimes that are globally curved.
> The key insight of the equivalence principle was that the force from gravity (e.g. standing on the Earth) is no different to the observer in their frame of reference to them being in a room in a rocket accelerating at the same rate as gravity
This was a further development of the equivalence principle from the free-fall version I described above. But note what it implies: it implies that, in modern terminology, treating a small enough piece of spacetime as flat works even if we adopt an accelerating reference frame in that small piece. Physics ultimately looks the same whether we adopt the frame of the object freely falling in the elevator/towards the Earth's surface, or the accelerated frame of the elevator/observer standing on the surface of the Earth. SR handles both just fine.
Where SR breaks down is when we need to extend our analysis beyond a small piece of spacetime--when the effects of spacetime curvature start to show up. That's when we need GR.
Again, all these implications were not necessarily clear to physicists a century ago. But they are now, and have been for decades.
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Comment by T-A 1 day ago
Quantum field theory in accelerating frames of reference is old hat; poster children like the Unruh effect [1] and Hawking radiation [2] are from the 1970s.
Comment by swiftcoder 1 day ago
I must say, it's actually quite refreshing to read an article about a science topic that conveys the caveats and limitations of the study. Far too many of these studies get filtered through the news outlet hype-machine
Comment by Mizza 1 day ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uey_mUy1vN0
Hopefully we'll see a result in the next decade
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Comment by drdeca 1 day ago
If you mean individual particles, fundamental particles don't really have distinct individual identities (as shown by fermi and bose statistics).
As for types of particles: Well, photons surely move at the speed photons move at.
Special relativity is derived from the assumption/observation that light travels at the same speed in all inertial reference frames, and generally that the laws of physics work the same in any inertial reference frame.
What you are proposing sounds pretty vague and unclear to me, but, is what you are trying to say compatible with this?
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Comment by ars 1 day ago
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_speed_of_light
Anyway, reading that should help you answer your own question, or at least give you a lot more questions to ask.
Comment by irjustin 20 hours ago
I hate this one because it's true Einstein said we cannot measure the speed of light in one direction that is independent of the clocks' synchronization technique being used to measure.
And yet, somehow we changed that to "we don't know the speed of light in one direction!!!" Which is bogus - can you imagine if speed of light was different if you were pointing east vs west? In space, what is even a direction vs another?
Did you even read the wiki you linked? We've done one-way speeds, it's down below.
Comment by zmgsabst 14 hours ago
You run into a similar problem with Michelson-Morley: because the apparatus and the light both get distorted by any motion, you can’t even in principle detect the aether wind with interferometry. You need a non-comoving dynamic source, eg, LIGO with black hole collisions.
Their one-way experiments seem to require similar, ie, we can observe dynamics but cannot measure a static bias.
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