A $500 RL fine-tune of a 9B open model beat frontier models on catalog review

Posted by ilreb 6 hours ago

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Comment by cmiles8 4 hours ago

The point that the major labs don’t seem to get is that the vast majority of use cases simply don’t need models that have 50 PhDs and can speak 12 languages. Most use cases are defined within constraints where costs matter a lot.

As open weight models and cheap fine tuning services become the norm the whole economic framework of these mega models the labs are in an arms race building just completely crumbles. As does the economic picture that justified the massive infrastructure building that’s now broadly funded by a complex network of debt.

This is what makes open weight models so threatening to them. The political and “it’s China” angle is mostly just a cover for the real reasons why they’re freaked out.

The fact that models are now a pure commodity is bad enough for the big labs. If small open weight models become the norm the big labs are toast.

Comment by vidarh 1 hour ago

Fine timing takes time and data, though. If smart enough models get cheap enough, then most people have lots of use cases that are cost insensitive enough that it's not worth the effort.

Of course, "smart enough" is a low enough threshold for most uses that this is still a problem for the frontier labs.

But at the same time, a truly smart enough closed model could also potentially command almost whatever they'd care to charge for it.

Whether they can actually get to that level remains to be seen, but I can definitely see a situation where most people are perfectly happy with cheap middle of the tree models while large corporations pay magnitudes more than current API pricing for access to models never even marketed as a mass market product and keep the labs afloat.

It's of course be a lot easier for them to find the path towards that of they didn't need to compete with open models in the meantime.

Comment by ozgrakkurt 4 hours ago

As someone who worked at multiple startups, I am pretty sure they get it but it doesn’t fit their goals.

They want to moat where they don’t need to compete with other companies because they have something that other companies can’t have.

In my opinion this is a short-sighted and greedy worldview. Haven’t seen it work personally. It is a different version of the month-to-month salary guy thinking he will be a billionaire and having that thrash “mindset”.

The reality is that practically none of those companies will amount to anything and they would be better off weighing the usefulness aspect of their output more. Instead they are imagining they will be Google.

Anthropic and openai ofc are the pinnacle of this greed culture and they correspond to FTX from the crypto trash hype so I don’t think they fit into the scale of sensibility.

Coming from this perspective, it is pretty easy to see what they are.

Comment by autuni 1 hour ago

seems that, like software engineering and other areas before, they also have to rediscover that one single monolithic solution that handles everything is too inflexible and not maintainable, it's just a bad approach. people don't need the models they use to generate their codebase to also be able to translate Shakespeare into gen-z slang

Comment by FranOntanaya 4 hours ago

Some specialized models may end solving themselves by helping fit the problem with the appropriate regular algorithms/formulas, which are a million times more efficient. So they are probably less attractive to dump money on. As of currently they still benefit from expressing lots of patterns that nobody bothered formalizing.

Comment by 3 hours ago

Comment by synergy20 3 hours ago

what are those cheap fine-tuning services these days?

Comment by bugglebeetle 3 hours ago

Tinker is pretty cheap. Prime Intellect if you want more flexibility.

Comment by stymaar 2 hours ago

> The point that the major labs don’t seem to get is that the vast majority of use cases simply don’t need models that have 50 PhDs and can speak 12 languages

I think they understand it but they think they can get away with it because they own the narrative. As long as they can make people believe they need such a model, it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

They are playing the cloud playbook, it didn't matter that most companies didn't need 99,999% uptime and instantaneous horizontal scaling, as long as people believed they did they are happily paying 10-100x the cost to AWS instead.

Comment by spongebobstoes 4 hours ago

the major labs want to advance science. current business use cases are a happy accident

Comment by h_mirin 2 hours ago

Every time I see this kind of story, two things bother me.

First, I have watched the free improvement of frontier models surpass the gains from retraining, many times now. Squeezing more out of the models that already exist, or simply doing nothing and waiting, is a real strategy and it often pays better. The fair comparison is not against today's frontier but against whatever ships while you are still maintaining your fine-tune.

Second, the $500 training bill is the cheapest line item in this story. The expensive parts are creating the data and maintaining the model afterwards. How many use cases can actually produce 177k scored episodes? Here they had to generate them synthetically from Amazon Berkeley Objects. To me, that dataset is the strongest evidence in the article of how hard fine-tuning is to apply: if the data existed naturally, nobody would need to manufacture it.

Comment by trentor 1 hour ago

What do you mean with maintaining the model? I am puzzled.

Comment by fnands 1 hour ago

Data drift. The data you are doing real world inference on can start changing, meaning your model performance starts degrading, so the model needs to be retrained on new data (that you have to collect and prepare).

Comment by Turskarama 36 minutes ago

Sure, but that apparently only costs $500. If you do that once a month then that's still basically free. Hell if you do it once a week it's still about as much as a single cheap employee.

Comment by himata4113 5 hours ago

What I really started to notice is that SOTA models are really good at putting themselves out of the job.

We can see this already with GPT how luna can do 90% of what sol is used for. The only reason why china still bothers 'distilling' models is accurate training data generation, something that oai and anthropic had to spend years collecting while trying to dodge legal challenges.

The more intelligent models get, the more people will offramp to cheaper solutions that get the job done. There's no real benefit to using a sota model when the accuracy is already 99% and I think that is the biggest danger to US labs.

Comment by com2kid 5 hours ago

The upper end is all about coding. If I have terra on extra high write code, Sol will find a plethora of bugs and rip the code apart.

Anything else? Sure use a cheaper model.

Comment by majormajor 5 hours ago

Sometimes that'll turn up real bugs, sometimes just overengineered designs, premature-optimization, and 1-in-a-million possibility "bugs".

And sometimes it's not about the model, it's just about refining the search space. E.g. I've had Opus write tests and GPT 5.5 write the implementation passing all the tests. Then ask about that specific implementation and find some real corner cases. Add those to tests, etc.

But the other fun trick that's been working better and better on the GPT-5.6 series is that even the lower-end models can find the things they didn't think of first when inspecting the already-written output.

I think there's still a bit of hard-to-quantify "creativity" to the bigger models - especially when trying to untangle (a) is this edge case that the model built a complicated way to avoid real/worth worrying about and also (b) even if it is real, is there not a better way to mitigate it? But it might be confirmation bias, in a way that definitely didn't use to be true about GPT-5.3 for planning and Composer 2 for implementation, say.

Comment by solarkraft 1 hour ago

> even the lower-end models can find the things they didn't think of first when inspecting the already-written output

I use Deepseek V4 Pro for my hobby project (an OpenCode client). The economics will obviously be different at work.

It’s worse than the GPTs, but indeed, if you focus it on reviewing its own code (essentially spending more reasoning and changing perspective), it’s also quite capable at improving its own approaches.

The GPTs are better at general architecting, but I think a lot of the performance gains also came from my more careful prompting (“okay, this is a hard problem, let’s think this through …”) to make using the more expensive model worth it. I use them and they are worth it on subsidized rates, but not at API prices. Since my Codex sub ran out I sometimes miss the models, but it really hasn’t devastated me.

Comment by himata4113 5 hours ago

You can have sol write code and terra will find a plethora of bugs and rip the code apart. In reality this is just the nature of advisory prompting and why advisor from omp.sh is such a great feature. They get caught as they're being written.

Comment by chorizo 3 hours ago

Or even more poignant, have terra write code and it will find lots of bugs in its own code. But let it iterate code reviews/fixes/test cases a few times, and you’ll have something nice.

The only cases where weaker models fail entirely and the frontier models really come through is when you have a non-obvious bug in a larger codebase - one that requires tracing lot of calls through the ast (especially in multithreaded code) to understand what might be going wrong.

Comment by 1 hour ago

Comment by skeptic_ai 2 hours ago

I can’t see the difference between terra and sol but I always use Sol. You guys can tell the difference. Even medium to xhigh is not that clear the difference.

Comment by JSR_FDED 6 hours ago

I like the 2x2 grid that describes when to fine-tune a model, when to use a frontier model, etc.

From the article it’s not clear how the scorer grades every episode - was it a frontier model that assigned the grade? How does that continue to work as the model that is being fine-tuned becomes better at the task than the frontier model?

Comment by nzeid 5 hours ago

I didn't read the Ramp article but this reads like a post hoc fallacy. Companies with 2x revenue have money to spend on AI. Companies with 1.15x revenue don't.

Comment by brainless 3 hours ago

I want small models to win and I am constantly experimenting with them. I have never tried fine-tuning and do not have that kind of budget. My approach is to remove some of the burden from models and bring into the agent.

Tool calling is an example - in some tasks RAG works really well, including coding agents where code, git log, Epics/Tasks, dependencies sources, etc. are all available in very structured manner. You can save many extra tool calls if you can run separate prompts and retrieve the source data needed for the actual work - rather its prompt.

And I really want to focus on search - this is the key technology if we want to use RAG instead of fine-tuning. If we can present really contextual sources in the prompts using a hybrid search approach - you can see how easily we get better results - either decisions or summaries from even small models.

Comment by heresalexandria 4 hours ago

This continuous cycle of fine-tuned open models beating frontier on (often vaguely labeled/defined) benchmarks doesn't provide an accurate comparison to the expanding generalized capabilities of the SoTA, which makes them effectively meaningless.

If we were to take these at face value, why is it that the frontier labs' models are making legitimate new discoveries (e.g. Erdős and Jacobian conjectures) and these models are not?

To me, a better signal of capability would be similarly performing novel work at the same or better level, which they presently are not. I say this as someone who very much looks forward to open models being more capable, but to deny the gap is misguided hopeful hype.

Comment by ChanderG 4 hours ago

Why? Why is the premise that Fine-tuned models should be geared towards new discoveries?

The point of Fine-tuning small models is for specific downstream tasks, which SOTA models can do, but at higher costs. It is purely an economic play, not an attempt at pushing boundaries of SOTA.

Comment by heresalexandria 4 hours ago

I'm not suggesting that fine-tuned models don't have their place, all I'm saying is that the constant drumbeat of "cheap model X beats more expensive model Z" completely misses that the more expensive model is capable of doing more things at a higher level.

If the appropriate qualifiers were added to say "cheap model X does better at test Y than expensive model Z when we fine tune X to take Y test of existing knowledge" then it would be a more accurate statement, but naturally less impressive.

Comment by ozim 4 hours ago

Maybe because people who are target audience don’t need to have it spelled out like that?

People who are not really into it, don’t care.

Comment by echelon 4 hours ago

> I'm not suggesting that fine-tuned models don't have their place, all I'm saying is that the constant drumbeat of "cheap model X beats more expensive model Z" completely misses that the more expensive model is capable of doing more things at a higher level.

What if you have to do the task a billion times? Which model will you choose?

Comment by antupis 4 hours ago

Speed play also you can get much faster responses with 9b model.

Comment by skybrian 4 hours ago

This is about saving money by using the right tool for the job. If you have a system that does a lot of mundane, repetitive work, you don't need a frontier model to do it.

It doesn't mean frontier models aren't good at harder tasks.

Comment by heresalexandria 4 hours ago

That's fair and I agree with this framing.

Comment by nine_k 4 hours ago

Huge SOTA models are like a floodlight. They elucidate a huge area at once.

A fine-tuned small model is like a laser pointer. It only illuminates a tiny specific spot. But it can illuminate it as brightly as the huge floodlight, for a tiny fraction of cost.

Comment by hahahaa 3 hours ago

Depends on use case. That email classifier for legal emails: cheaper at scale as a small tuned model. Let alone better for the planet. Frontier model may have done that tuning!

Comment by mpaepper 2 hours ago

There seems to be no hold out data for test, so this is just overfitting?

Comment by madhu_ghalame 2 hours ago

As AI agents become more autonomous, governance and auditability will become critical, not optional.

Comment by mips_avatar 3 hours ago

The problem i've had with finetuning models is that most of the time better prompting beats finetuning

Comment by tikotus 2 hours ago

Better prompting doesn't improve response time or price!

Comment by _345 5 hours ago

"87.3%

Share of the maximum achievable score our GRPO-trained 9B open-source model reached on catalog review, vs 76.9% for the best frontier configuration: a 13.5% relative improvement over the frontier, and 36% over its own untrained base (64.2%). The five frontier models, even with optimized prompts, plateaued within a tenth of a point of each other; the trained specialist cleared that ceiling."

_______

This is hard for me to believe. I have a lot of skepticism that frontier models like GPT 5.5 that are likely 2T+ parameters in size only got about 12% more accurate than an untrained 9b parameter LLM.

Comment by baq 3 hours ago

Why? This is a very narrow task, it’d be surprising if the results were different actually; more interesting question would be how an even smaller model performs in the same finetune.

Comment by sudo_cowsay 5 hours ago

What benchmark is it? Is it super niche?

Comment by stldev 5 hours ago

They built their own benchmark and then trained directly against its scoring function.. seems to be the rage, but nothing convincing from the article alone.

Comment by KennyBlanken 2 hours ago

Comparing the revenue of the top quartile of AI-using companies to the average of all non-AI-using companies is beyond intellectually dishonest.

Comment by receptopalak 3 hours ago

[flagged]

Comment by croemer 4 hours ago

[dead]

Comment by nothrowaways 4 hours ago

Tldr: we don't know what we are doing like the rest of 99% AI teams.

Comment by 4 hours ago