DConf 2026 in London
Posted by teleforce 13 hours ago
Comments
Comment by WalterBright 12 hours ago
Comment by gregdaniels421 12 hours ago
Edit: I think it was called "Herbception"s after Herb Sutter, and it really sounded like a good idea to me
Comment by WalterBright 12 hours ago
I used to be a big fan of C++ exceptions, but eventually soured on it for various reasons. Here's an article partially addressing it from a while back:
Comment by germandiago 10 hours ago
I would classify D's scope exit/failure/success as RAII actually, even if D uses a GC.
Sometimes you might not need exceptions and something like std::expected or optional is better.
In my case I use expected for some network APIs since I expect failures to happen out of my control aspart of the flow of my program, but I do not see why I would not use exceptions in many other situations, such as for non-ignorsble errors. I could think of a lack of disk space or some other fatal error thst is not under the control of the program.
If you forget to handle this, the error will cascade.
Also, exceptions do not make the signature of a function change (at least not in C++, Java checked exceptions is different). This means that the plasticity for adding errors at any depth of the call stack augments without bypassing any error silently.
All in all, I would say exceptions should be the main mechanism in normal circumstances and for expected errors you csn use error/result types.
Comment by nicoburns 6 hours ago
I personally much prefer Rust style Result which also can't be ignored, and puts fallibili5y in the function signature.
Comment by germandiago 2 hours ago
For Rust result in C++ you have optional and expected. But they have their own problems, like rewriting function signatures all the way up the stack if you notice an error was possible when adding code.
Comment by malcolmgreaves 1 hour ago
Comment by michaelt 5 hours ago
In Java exceptions can be part of a method's declared type information, so handling is checked at compile time and IDEs can display the info.
Unfortunately certain Java missteps made this design unpopular these days. For example, for many years new String(bytes, "UTF-8"); made it mandatory to catch a UnsupportedEncodingException despite the language spec guaranteeing UTF-8 would be available. A later version of Java addressed it, but still...
Comment by mgaunard 3 hours ago
Your code shouldn't need to make assumption about whether exception are being thrown or not.
Your mistake is thinking that a function potentially throwing means you need to catch it.
Comment by WalterBright 10 hours ago
D's scope exit/failure/success is built on top of RAII and has nothing to do with the GC.
> I would say exceptions should be the main mechanism in normal circumstances and for expected errors you csn use error/result types.
Come to DConf (or watch the live stream) and I hope I can change your mind, or at least challenge your conclusions!
Comment by germandiago 8 hours ago
What I meant here (I do not know the mechanism) is that I am aware that D has a GC. This means, correct me if I am wrong, that D does not use destructors (like C++) for scope exit/failure/success, though they are scoped mechanisms (RAII-like).
> Come to DConf (or watch the live stream)
I always follow D (even if I did not use it intensively). I have extremely high respect for you as a language designer and as a technician. Your knowledge is very refined, so I never take your opinions lightly.
Probably one of the most knowledgeable persons in the industry for native language design. However, I am far and cannot attend, so I will definitely watch it.
> or at least challenge your conclusions!
No problem in challenging them. I am always open to do things better. This is just my practical experience as I implement stuff so far.
I currently think exceptions seems like a good default mechanism (apparently at least) compared to alternatives. But I also think other mechanisms have their place and can/should be used even in the same program, just for different things.
All mechanisms have trade-offs. I just talked about defaults from my POV for the kind of software I develop (mostly server-side, some client-side, and not embedded in the extremely constrained sense).
-----------------------------
One question: I tried to use D several times in my career (20 years of C++ experience here, roughly). I found it a lot of fun. I like it better than more "modern languages". I like the plasticity D provides. But I am not sure how it would work if I want to do:
1. backend (server-side mainly, Linux is main platform, x86-64)
2. desktop + android and iOS (being mobile more important than desktop)
3. web assembly (even more important than mobile at this moment, could change).
4. backwards compatibility (heard complaints of versions breaking stuff frequently around).
5. interaction with C++.
I do like D a lot, but the problems I had before were more related to tooling (autocomplete, I use mainly Emacs but did not try for a few years) and toolchain maturity.It would be ready for all of the above? Also, very very handy would be to wrap C++ code and C code. I saw that D had an ongoing effort for C++ compatibility better than other languages, but I am afraid it could be half-broken. Even if it is, it is documented what works and what does not work? That would help a lot.
Thanks.
Comment by WalterBright 5 hours ago
It does, but the user doesn't see them.
There are people working on 1, 2 and 3.
> 4. backwards compatibility (heard complaints of versions breaking stuff frequently around).
We listened, and cut way back on breaking changes. Now we have editions.
> 5. interaction with C++.
C++ has gotten to the point where it would take another decade of my time to wire in ImportC++. However, if you stick with C++'s C interface when interfacing with D, you should be fine. D will also work with C++ name mangling, but all the complexity of C++ templates and such is just too much.
And thank you for the kind words! I definitely appreciate it.
> I am far and cannot attend, so I will definitely watch it.
Wonderful!
Comment by skocznymroczny 5 hours ago
There is a fork of D compiler called OpenD which has some WebAssembly support with garbage collection and standard library. I've used it, it works for the most part, but there's bugs and if you encounter any issues then you're on your own.
Comment by gregdaniels421 10 hours ago
It has better than that, but it is a bit clunky compared with C++(just use struct instead of class). You can have proper destructors, but if you have a container you need to be more careful than in C++.
In D exceptions are the default like in C++ and you have to opt out with nothrow or extern(C) or betterC.
Really try some D code in a bigger situation it is 90% good and almost worth using over C++, but if you can't have GC it is a huge pain, but better than C.
Comment by WalterBright 8 hours ago
Also, recently the GC implementation received a big modernization upgrade.
Comment by pjmlp 6 hours ago
Additionally, Khalil Estell has made an excellent work proving that the way exceptions are currently implemented is not optimal and there is plenty of room for improvement, when someone cares about their implementation.
"Cutting C++ Exception Time by +90%? - Khalil Estell - CppCon 2025"
Comment by wannabe44 9 hours ago
Comment by jeffreygoesto 7 hours ago
Comment by macoovacany 12 hours ago
Comment by WalterBright 12 hours ago
I can never get past the ugly syntax.
Comment by mananaysiempre 4 hours ago
Standard exception handling is:
- Whenever an error happens, the program puts a description of it into an “exception” object. You go from the innermost dynamic scope to the outermost looking for handlers. Once you find a handler willing to accept that type of exception, you unwind to the point where it was installed then invoke it, passing the exception object.
Condition handling[3] is:
- Whenever an error happens, the program puts a description of it into a “condition” object. You go from the innermost dynamic scope to the outermost looking for handlers. Once you find a condition handler willing to accept that type of condition, you invoke it as a regular callback, without unwinding, passing the condition object.
- The handler then packs up some data into a “restart” object. You go through all the dynamic scopes again (remember that the erroring function is still active). Once you find a restart handling willing to accept this type of restart, you unwind to the point where it was installed then invoke it, passing the restart object.
(I am omitting things outside the happy path: a way for the exception/condition handler to punt, what happens if the condition handler does not invoke a restart, etc.)
As far as the benefits of this two-phase approach, Practical Common Lisp gives an example[4] of a single-record parser that raises an “invalid record” condition, a loop around it that installs a “skip to next record” restart, and finally the caller can make the policy decision on what to do for invalid records.
As another example, Common Lisp signals an “unbound-variable”[5] condition leaving the “use-value” and “store-value” restarts in scope, then the REPL installs a handler that offers them interactively. (My own half-serious example of a DOS abort/retry/fail prompt is in this vein too, chosen mostly because it feels strange that you can’t do it in a conventional exception system.)
[1] https://package.opendylan.org/dylan-programming-book/excepti...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31196046
[3] https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001....
[4] https://gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-condi...
[5] https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/e_unb...
Comment by swyx 11 hours ago
Comment by WalterBright 10 hours ago
Comment by LorenDB 2 hours ago
By the way, big fan of D even though I don't get to use it much. Appreciate your work!
Comment by cachius 1 hour ago
Comment by p0nce 1 hour ago
Comment by bayesnet 10 hours ago
Comment by gregdaniels421 13 hours ago
Edit: Also would be nice to adopt move and copy semantics even closer to C++ and maybe need less explicit moves, and ideally less mess with calling __xdtor when trying to do RAII
Comment by destructionator 11 hours ago
there's a contributor working with both upstream and opend adding wasi support as well, and he also got exception support working, we'll probably ship that next month.
so the full d story on wasm is progressing too.
Comment by gregdaniels421 11 hours ago
Comment by destructionator 11 hours ago
You might say if it is so easy, why not do it upstream? It takes years of political arguments and random ghosting to get anything done up there, all while constant (regression inducing) code churn breaks your PRs every other month, so you spend 3x the time rebasing than you ever spent writing the implementation before it is merged...... if it ever gets merged at all. I have several successful contributions to upstream D, it happens, but most the work done there is ignored. You might get some encouraging forum replies, but when it comes time to ship it? Crickets. Several former D contributors jumped ship for Zig many years ago, and it was a real loss for us (and real gain for them).
With the opend, I know if it works and delivers real world value, I can ship a release, dmd and ldc together, so minimal duplicated waste work.
What should you use? idk, opend is basically my pet project, provided in the hope that it will be useful, but THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED `'AS IS″ AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE so your mileage may vary. Still, I maintain about a half million lines of code, some of which is quite old, so keeping some stability is important to me while moving forward with select common-sense, incremental improvements. Most D code works fine either way though, I've done web programming a long time, in the old school tradition, so words like "progressive enhancement" and "graceful degradation" are meaningful to me, even when being a compiler maintainer.
Comment by gregdaniels421 10 hours ago
Oof, yeah that is definitely a pain point. Not to get too personal, but why would you continue to invest so much time in the language if upstream isn't accommodating?
Has WalterBright had any comments on this? He usually is so vocal, any hope of a remerge of the OpenD changes in to CanonD?
Anyway, I appreciate you trying to advance Dlang, I fight for it all the time at work, and usually get to do stuff in it(I am old and have privileges).
Comment by qwe----3 12 hours ago
Comment by vips7L 11 hours ago
Comment by skocznymroczny 5 hours ago
Comment by swyx 11 hours ago
Comment by ccapitalK 39 minutes ago
- It has a type system that catches most category errors, without having to think too much about types
- It is quite easy to read and write, and code in it has a high signal to noise ratio
- It provides a GC, but also allows you to write idiomatic code that doesn't allocate a lot (missing from a lot of gc languages, it feels like most GC languages force you to allocate more for every abstraction you write)
- It supports GC style code for things that don't need to be efficient (>98% of the code I actually write)
- I can easily micro-optimize the inner-loop code that does need to be efficient, without having to switch languages or setup ffi. I can also be relatively certain that the GC isn't firing too often in those loops, since the gc only collects when you gc-allocate
- I can use all of the native libraries with C bindings on my system, with practically zero costs for bindings
- Metaprogramming in it is top notch, I feel like every time I needed to do some type level shenanigans, I could do so in a way that actually looked like code in the end, without needing to maintain a code-generator. The way the metaprogramming works also stays fairly readable, it's not like macro_rules! or #defines or templates.
Overall, it has superseded C for pretty much everything I previously used C for, and is a joy to use for a lot of other usecases as well, I've found myself reaching for it for programs that I would otherwise write in python recently. Only major weakness in my daily experience is that you can't compile it to WASM, so I'm still using rust for that. I've considered learning Zig or Odin, but I feel like I would miss the GC for simple tasks, and D is good enough on most axes that I stopped looking for a new one true programming language to write all my code in.Comment by zem 11 hours ago
Comment by WalterBright 11 hours ago
int foo() { return bar(); }
int bar() { return 3; }Comment by pjmlp 1 hour ago
And even if that isn't a problem, given how ISO works, someone still needs to get that paper in and voted.
Comment by zerr 5 hours ago
Comment by vips7L 11 hours ago
Comment by WalterBright 10 hours ago
It has deleterious consequences. One solution is to add a forward declaration, which is the kind of busywork a language is supposed to eliminate.
Another is to reverse the natural order of functions, with the implementation functions at the top and the interface of the module at the bottom.
After all, do you read a website from top to bottom or bottom to top?
Comment by CapsAdmin 7 hours ago
So I guess I kind of prefer seeing helper functions at the top and the main logic at the bottom most of the time.
Comment by WalterBright 5 hours ago
Comment by OSaMaBiNLoGiN 13 hours ago
Comment by WalterBright 12 hours ago