The US is charging an American citizen for wiping his phone at the border
Posted by arkits 1 day ago
Comments
Comment by 3eb7988a1663 1 day ago
- If I rob a bank and then burn all of my planning materials after the crime - did I destroy evidence?
- If I rob a bank, the police question me but do not charge me with anything. I then burn all of the planning materials - did I destroy evidence?
- If I rob a bank, the police have a warrant to search my house in relation to an unrelated insurance scam across the street. Then I burn all of my bank heist materials - did I destroy evidence?
When the police are "just having a chat" and you later destroy all of your papers which might have been linked to a crime - isn't that fully within my rights to destroy my property? When do I have an explicit requirement to maintain my effects so the state can use it against me?If I have a dash-cam in my car and it records me speeding - am I not allowed to overwrite the old footage? What if that dash-cam footage is the only thing that proves a crime were committed? Now I am forced to let my possessions testify against me.
Comment by Tadpole9181 1 day ago
You ate a grilled cheese in your home and wipe the crumbs into the bin. The police arrest you for destruction of evidence for robbing a bank that never even got robbed. Then they hit you with qualified immunity and high five each other.
It's utterly ridiculous that police seem to just have infinite powers now. All they have to do is say "I suspect" and they have boundless ability to arrest anyone (potentially losing their job or missing key life events), declare any object as evidence (which the department can conveniently keep for themselves even if you're found innocent), or use mass surveillance systems (to stalk women).
EDIT: Finding another article, it's even worse. He didn't do it at all - he was interrogated, was never allowed his lawyer, never read rights, with no warrant. And after having the device seized an agent triggered the device wipe themselves by trying to get in under this duress.
So in this case, the the cop eats the grilled cheese and throws out the crumbs and then arrests you for destruction of evidence.
Comment by cindyllm 1 day ago
Comment by stevenalowe 1 day ago
With respect to the phone, I'd say one has the right to delete everything on one's phone at any time. There is no evidence that the person in question was "destroying evidence" because there was no evidence - or suspicion, or charges, or anything substantive.
I think the authorities just got ticked off by the duress password, and they're flinging mud.
Comment by piloto_ciego 1 day ago
Comment by ost-ing 20 hours ago
No authority should ever be above that, unless you take those same rights away from another.
Authority and the State steals these rights from us, slowly eroding them under the guise of safety, passing immoral midnight legislation like Chat Control, or declaring a state of emergency. Time and time again we find ourselves in a prison and time and time again we start the next inevitable revolution.
Comment by piloto_ciego 1 day ago
Comment by xlii 1 day ago
If the border isn't "US soil" then what jurisdiction is it?
How come American forces can seize goods if that's not US? What prevents them from trying the same, e.g. in Europe or Australia?
Also I find the law penalizing people who might deprive state of evidence especially odd. In (AFAIK) most of the Europe there's no self indictment, so destroying any kind of evidence that might get you indicted is fair game and you can't get penalized by such fact alone.
And of all of it the fact that US government is pulling this stuff on US citizens is unbelievable.
No idea, might be only me, but I start to perceive US more and more as a totalitarian state.
Comment by Tadpole9181 1 day ago
You're starting to perceive us as totalitarian? We are! For 30% of us, proudly, apparently. Our president attempted to violently overthrow our government for God's sake!
Comment by LorenPechtel 1 day ago
In the US there's no self indictment but it's interpreted as applying to anything in your mind, not to physical things. You can not be compelled to answer a question (except if you have been granted immunity about what you will say) but things like your fingerprints are fair game. Likewise, your phone.
The part of this case that I find bad is that there are no charges. This was a fishing expedition, cops can't get warrants for fishing expeditions. I find using the border patrol's ability to inspect arriving individuals for local law enforcement way out of line.
Comment by xlii 14 hours ago
I've searched and found that Australia has similar concept. According to EU laws person on-territory is under jurisdictiction of said territory (even though it might bar from entering, but still EU/local laws apply there) - this is probably why I'm so surprised.
Also regarding this exact nuke-phone-through-distress-password: in many European countries it's perfectly legal to protect oneself from law. While the law is nuanced (i.e. one might not be obligated to provide password, and responsibility for destruction can be put on forces as they could be found at failure when securing device), usually it's fair game.
In the end I just find this terrifying. The idea that I'm getting back from vacations and then I get myself as probed like that. Here, the only things I'm afraid of are... queues.
Comment by LorenPechtel 5 hours ago
The distinction between physical and legal presence is something that most people don't think about but it's effectively impossible for society to operate any other way. With land borders you technically could put the border station exactly on the boundary, but that would be quite problematic and is never done. There is also the problem that most countries have exit controls, also--after you pass the exit control you are no longer legally in the country even though you physically still are.
Then when you throw in reality it gets even more complex. I have been on a plane that skipped landing in Taipei and proceeded to Hong Kong (I won't call it diverted as the flight was Tokyo - Taipei - Hong Kong, we were just going to get off in Taipei.) Passports never looked at, we were shuffled around through the secure area of the airport and put on another plane that was flying the reverse route. And I have made a transit of Botswana by train without ever encountering any officials from Botswana. The only officials we saw were from Zimbabwe (where we boarded the train) and South Africa (where it was going.)
And we got caught in no-man's-land between Rwanda and Congo. Cleared Rwanda exit control, proceeded across the border (land crossing) to Congo, they said sorry, border's closed until after the election. We had a still-valid but useless visa for Congo, our visa for Rwanda was single entry and had been used. The Rwandan officials saw the problem and cancelled our exit from Rwanda.
And I have done US pre-clearance from Canada, legally I was in the US, not Canada, before boarding the flight. This does more than simply move the officials, the flight was treated as a domestic US flight and could land at airports without international facilities. And, back in the less formal days we ended up going through Singapore without our passports ever being seen other than in our hands. (On arrival, we lost an object on the airplane and spent a while hunting for it, by the time we got to the officials they were done with everyone else, they were talking to each other and just waved us through. Then, on departure the idiot taxi driver took us to the cable car station instead of the train station. The train started to roll while we were still in line--several of us with first-world passports got waved through. The train was moving slowly enough we managed to catch up to a door before we ran out of platform.)
Comment by Havoc 1 day ago
But he's a US citizen? Do US citizens need permission to be in their country? Where else would they be if not granted?
US border thinking seems insane
Comment by piloto_ciego 1 day ago
It used to not even be like this - you could just like; move to France 150 years ago or move to the US and nobody gave a damn (I’m simplifying it, but basically this is the case). The only places where this wasn’t the case was like messed up countries like Russia or feudal China, but even then, borders were way more porous.
We got stupid after WW1 and were paying for that to this day. These imaginary lines will go away one day, I just hope it happens before their cause our extinction.
Comment by JohnFen 12 hours ago
Comment by ChrisArchitect 23 hours ago