How the God of Israel Was Born
Posted by trikko 15 hours ago
Comments
Comment by andsoitis 15 hours ago
a) Atenism in Egypt (c. 1350 BCE)
b) Israelite / Hebrew
c) Zoroastrianism in Persia
While some scholars (like Freud) have proposed a link between (a) and (b), it remains contested and unproven.
What is, however, likely, is a link between (c) and (b), specifically that Zoroastrianism likely influenced Second Temple Judaism during the period of Persian rule over Judea, particularly ideas about cosmic dualism, angels, demons, and eschatology.
Comment by dekervin 14 hours ago
In reality many human societies throughout the ages have been monotheists.
Comment by everdrive 14 hours ago
Comment by ecshafer 13 hours ago
There are schools that say Hinduism is monotheistic, where Para Brahma is God, and the different "Gods" like Shiva and Vishnu are different avatars of Para Brahma. But there are a lot of schools/philosophies of Hinduism and I only have a surface level understanding.
Comment by dekervin 13 hours ago
[2] Perspectives on Lozi traditions. https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstreams/cca7ee20-46fa-4585-b1...
Comment by lopsotronic 13 hours ago
Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (Qumran/LXX) Elyon apportions nations among divine sons, with Yahweh receiving Jacob - Yahweh one of El's sons (Masoretic fixes this). Kuntillet ʿAjrud, c. 800 BCE, blesses by "Yahweh of Samaria and his asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his asherah" -- i.e. plural localized Yahwehs, exactly how Near Eastern polytheism works. Psalm 82, God sentencing other gods to die like men.A flat denial of other gods arrives only with Deutero-Isaiah (44:6, 45:5–7), i.e., post-Persia.
I'd add a few things to your a-b-c list.
First, Mesopotamian and Egyptian summodeism: Marduk in Enūma Elish, the Ramesside Amun hymns. Akhenaten radicalized this trend.
Second, and this is unappreciated, soooooooo much of the faith passes through Greek[2] - Xenophanes "one god, greatest among gods and men," then Plato, Aristotle's unmoved mover, Stoics. Divine simplicity, immutability, omniscience, creation ex nihilo. Philo fuses all this crap, and Origen, Maimonides, Aquinas all run through Philo.
[0] "Refer to" aka with all the late-19th Century European baggage of what a "people" or a "nation" actually is.
[1] Note that even in the Bible, many centuries later, the prophets always come down from the hills into the cities, and once in the population center they generally yell at people and get yelled at. Solomon, as in biblical Solomon, built loads of temples to other gods, and it's extremely likely that the big temple - THE Temple, capitalized - was a multi-cult site. Good luck studyin any of this in the academy - I've known professional archaeologists who have changed their university rather than dip a little toe in biblical archaeology, due to how fraught everything is, and how nasty it gets very quickly.
[2] Unsurprising, since the foundational texts actually get written down in the Hellenic period. But I would argue even further than that, and would posit that the Hellenic period is the birth of the faith proper, where all the threads come together. Judaism and Christianity aren't parent and child, but more like a pair of siblings, with the latter child being something of a caboose baby. Although one could argue Islam would be the true caboose baby.
Comment by everdrive 14 hours ago
Comment by mcphage 13 hours ago
Comment by everdrive 5 hours ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/xrynt2/why_i...
-- linked from /r/academicbiblical in this discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/1j1qx7q/v...
Comment by mcphage 4 hours ago
Comment by trikko 15 hours ago
On Persian influence: Demons are probably more directly Babylonian than Persian. Judah got that exposure during the Exile itself, not under Persian rule. Lilith (Isaiah 34:14) is the Mesopotamian Lilitu, and Babylonian demonology (Lamashtu, Pazuzu, the utukku) was already rich on its own. Where Zoroastrian influence is a stronger case is angels as named individuals with defined roles (Michael, Gabriel, hierarchies), which show up for the first time in post-exilic texts like Daniel, plausibly modeled on the Amesha Spentas and Yazatas after contact with Achaemenid Persia. Same goes for full cosmic dualism, a Satan as an independent adversarial being rather than a role in the divine court (as in Job or Zechariah, where "satan" is a title, not a name).
It's a big topic on its own, deserving separate treatment. I deliberately scoped this piece to the older, pre-exilic layer (the El/YHWH merger through Josiah's reform).
For what it's worth, the piece isn't arguing for a single external source anyway: Canaanite (El, Baal, Asherah), Mesopotamian (the Flood mirrors Atrahasis/Gilgamesh, the creation account echoes the Enuma Elish, plus the exile-era demonology above), Egyptian, and later Persian and Hellenistic layers all leave fingerprints at different points. Judaism's formation looks less like one merger and more like several centuries of absorbing and reworking whatever was around.
Comment by andsoitis 6 hours ago
Comment by red_admiral 14 hours ago
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Comment by everdrive 14 hours ago
I did not have a Christian upbringing, and outside of a few verses here and there I had really never read the Book of Genesis and could not have described it accurately to anyone. Having initially read R. Crumb's Book of Genesis Illustrated, I was baffled more than anything. This was really my first introduction to ancient writing, so a lot of things which are expected for ancient writing were very, very confusing for me.
The story made no sense. It's not so much that I disagreed with the story, but rather I could not have told you what a reader was supposed to get from the story. If I had read and disliked (as a real example) "The Scarlet Letter" I could have easily conveyed the themes of the book and the intent of the author, at least at a level of moderate competence. But what the hell was going on in the Book of Genesis? I had no idea. Why were all the best stories just a few sentences long? The Tower of Babel is an amazing visual and allegory in a conceptual sense ... but the actual story in Genesis is a mere 8 sentences. And what does it have to do with the rest of the story? It's not coherent at all. And why did people live really long previously? Why was Adam some 800-900 years old? Why is this never explained? If Adam could live to 900 years, but you'd never met anyone who lived past 80, wouldn't you want some explanation for this behavior, if even it was just something hand-wavy such as "we lived longer before the fall?" etc ..
Now, there are answers to a lot of the these questions. Most of the answers (if you ignore the ridiculousness of the apologetics) is simply that the Bible is not one book, but a huge collection of stories with different authors, telling stories for different reasons, for different audiences, and at different times. Genesis in particular is almost certainly an adaption and conglomeration of many previous myths, and many of these would have been familiar to the audience of the time. As a rough example, if you wanted to write a vampire movie in 2026, you would not need to explain to the audience what a vampire is. The audience already knows and you waste words and waste realism by explaining it.
Ultimately, these questions led me to want to read more on the topic. To me, it was impossible to understand how the Book of Genesis could possibly form the foundation of the three major Abrahamic religions, and captivate much of the population of the entire world, for much of recorded history. And again, I don't mean in some sanctimonious fedora-tipping sort of way. I just couldn't make sense of the stories whatever. They were deeply confusing to me.
Ultimately, this sort of sat around in my mind until I bumped into the inscriptions from Kuntillet Arjud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntillet_Ajrud_inscriptions) of Yaheh and his Asherah. The visual, of a weird iron-age deity with a weird iron-age consort reignited my interest. From there, I read Mark S. Smith, Thomas Romer, and more.
I think my curiosity has been roughly satisfied, even though there are a lot of unanswered (and potentially unanswerable) questions: for instance, is the Kennite hypothesis correct? What I found is in hindsight what anyone should have expected: the Israelite religion changed significantly over time, is full of its own myth-making and navel-gazing, and of course, was heavily influenced by the local cultures and religions it coexisted and intermixed with.
Comment by dragontamer 14 hours ago
We don't actually place that much emphasis on Genesis or the Bible in general. A lot of Catholic traditions are outside of the books: the sacraments, the assumption of Mary, the Apostles and their connection to the Bishops (and Bishop of Rome/The Pope), etc. etc.
Some Christians overemphasize the written word of the Bible. But just gonna toss this out: Biblical Literalism is not part of the Catholic tradition. It simply cannot be, as many important traditions were never written down at that time.
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The importance of the Torah is that Jesus was born as a Hebrew, so understanding his religion helps us understand the life he lived. As well as the prophesies he fulfilled.
But in terms of story? It's all an allegory or metaphor. Catholics are generally comfortable with saying that, ex evolution exists, even if it's not part of the book of Genesis.
Comment by beardyw 12 hours ago
Comment by RhysU 13 hours ago
The Gnostic Christians who rejected the Old Testament entirety had to insert some other reason to require Christ. My favorite mechanism is how Marcion handled it, purely because his was more interesting than "everyone starts broken."
But yes, generally Catholics are not sola scriptura while most Protestants are.
Comment by dragontamer 9 hours ago
It's important for any Catholic to study that IMO, and what led us towards the Nicene Creed / council of Nicaea. So it's definitely on my todo list of historical facts to look up.
And point on the Genesis ideas like original sin. We do take from Genesis just not as much as some other churches.
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The debate and back and forth of the Gnostics with regards to the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are hugely important and the very reason why the Creed was created in the first place.
So much Catholic tradition is a continuation of the decisions of our early leaders recorded in the 300s AD and onward. (And the big gap between 30 AD when Jesus likely died and 300ish AD is simply oral traditions and barely written down outside of the Gospel and Paul's letters.)
Comment by pram 14 hours ago
"impossible to understand how the Book of Genesis could possibly form the foundation of the three major Abrahamic religions"
Maybe because it is the thing introduces Abraham? lol
Comment by everdrive 14 hours ago
Compare this to something like a Stephen King novel. A reader can pick it up, read it without any prep or study, and understand it readily.
I'm not saying that the Bible has no cohesion or anything like that -- but that a totally unprepared modern reader probably cannot make sense of the text. And also that until recently, most Americans would have been prepared with quite a bit of cultural context for the Bible via church and other things which laid out the colloquial interpretations of the text for people from an early age.
Comment by forlorn_mammoth 11 hours ago
https://literatureandhistory.com/episode-001-the-tower-of-ba...
Scholarly work, not preachy.
by "Doug Metzger finished his Ph.D. in literature in 2011. His chief scholarly interest, following his dissertation work, continues to be 19th-century realism and postbellum American philosophy."
Comment by everdrive 9 hours ago
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