Magnolias are so old that they're pollinated by beetles, not bees (2025)

Posted by speckx 5 days ago

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Comment by teh_klev 5 hours ago

Comment by mark_something 4 hours ago

Thanks. The first article has more info, e.g. that those beetles are flightless.

But that makes me suspect that they spend a lot of time on one tree, only pollinating that tree, which would be pointless because there is no exchange of genes.

Comment by 57 minutes ago

Comment by dr_dshiv 4 hours ago

The desperation of the immobile

Comment by cubefox 2 hours ago

The second article goes into more detail:

> To minimize the risk of self-pollination, which can result in inbreeding depression and recessive mutations, the flowers open in the morning and the stigmas are receptive to pollen that is brought to them by foraging beetles throughout the day. When evening comes, the innermost tepals close around the carpel and trap the pollinating beetle. While the tepals are closed, the beetle deposits pollen all over the receptive stigmas. The stigmas then close and the anthers become active, covering the same beetle in fresh pollen so that when the sepals open in the morning, it will fly out and find another flower to pollinate. This precise delay in flower function helps to ensure cross pollination.

Comment by chabes 5 days ago

A lot of plants aren’t pollinated by bees. There’s pollinator wasps, flies, moths, butterflies… even birds and bats are pollinators

Comment by rob74 5 hours ago

One of those moths is this guy, who (in flight, not so much in still images) looks and sounds like a miniature hummingbird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_hawk-moth

Comment by fyhn 5 hours ago

I noticed these for the first time earlier this summer. Incredible insects! They really do give a hummingbird impression.

Comment by VMG 4 hours ago

rare instance where the German name Taubenschwänzchen ('little dove-tail') is nicer than the English name

Comment by rob74 1 hour ago

That reminds me that people who hear the word for butterfly (Schmetterling) in German for the first time usually think it sounds extremely violent. Ok, then again, "butterfly" sounds slightly disgusting if you think about it. But TIL that they actually have a similar root: the "Schmetter-" doesn't come from smashing, but from "Schmetten", a word derived from the Slavic "smetana" (cream). Apparently butterflies got their name from the popular belief that witches could turn into butterflies to steal milk or cream (and probably also other dairy products?).

Comment by 317070 3 hours ago

For many people, it is the other way around. It is very remarkable that there is a bird, which looks so much like a big version of this butterfly!

After all, in Europe these butterflies are commonplace, but I've never seen the American bird in my life.

Comment by neutronicus 3 hours ago

Finding hawk moth caterpillars on my tomato plant was one of the bigger wtfs of my adult life

Comment by nkozyra 2 hours ago

Honestly you're lucky there were any leaves left.

You must have caught it within two or three hours after its arrival.

In the US we have similar hawk moths; the tomato hornworm also looks like a hummingbird when it reaches maturity.

Comment by jacobolus 39 minutes ago

The "hornworm" caterpillars leave amazing poops behind. They look like (not so) little green grenades.

Their moths are important pollinators of some nice native flowers.

Comment by empyrrhicist 2 hours ago

Once I started leaving just the ones with parasitoid wasp eggs on their backs in the garden, I completely stopped having problems with these guys.

Comment by barrenko 5 hours ago

Very common around my mom's house.

Comment by FerretFred 5 hours ago

I have to say that if we're also talking about wild grasses, my wire fox terrier is also a pollinator. He collects an incredible amount of seeds and burrs during his walkies investigations and I have to pick them out of his fur afterwards (risky because he gets annoyed easily).

Comment by rantallion 5 hours ago

Seeds are not gametes. While your dog may help spread the seeds, they are not assisting in the sexual reproduction itself.

Comment by HughParry 1 hour ago

If you push me into a bush then you'll make me a pollinator as well

Comment by williamdclt 8 hours ago

mosquitoes too, though it pains me to give them credit for anything

Comment by nkrisc 7 hours ago

True, all mosquitoes drink nectar, and only females of some species drink blood.

Comment by twister2920 23 minutes ago

and some species' females require a blood meal before laying eggs :(

Comment by 6 hours ago

Comment by broeng 5 hours ago

And olive trees have genders, with the male pollinating the surrounding females.

Comment by BigTTYGothGF 4 hours ago

That's pretty common in plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioecy

Comment by pfdietz 3 hours ago

And by wind. The major staple crops are all wind pollinated.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 5 hours ago

My pawpaws (Asimina triloba) mainly need (house) flies to pollinate. They make their flowers look like meat.

I have a couple 100 foot rows of them, it's tricky to get good pollination.

Comment by mallomarmeasle 4 hours ago

My grandpappy told me that if you want a good crop of pawpaws you have to hang a dead cat in the tree. I think dead cats were in greater supply back in his day.

Fascinating flowers for a tree though. Red meat color and odor only a fly could love.

For anyone that’s close, go to the upcoming Ohio Pawpaw festival! https://ohiopawpawfest.com/

Comment by cmrdporcupine 3 hours ago

Yeah I've wondered about just really nasty ass stinky fresh manure around the base of each tree. That would attract flies.

Probably a flush of nitrogen at exactly the wrong time tho. Most plants respond to that by pushing excess green growth instead of flowering and fruit set.

Comment by pfdietz 2 hours ago

Solid cow manure is really low in nitrogen, though, and maybe 90% is organic N which is released slowly.

Maybe you meant fresher manure.

Comment by cmrdporcupine 2 hours ago

Whatever brings the most flies to the yard.

The farm next door occasionally grows cauliflower. Like 15 acres of it. When that happens and they do the harvest in the end of August the whole area stinks like rotting brassicas and there's flies everywhere. If I could just replicate that experience in mid-May...

Comment by indoordin0saur 3 hours ago

You grow these commercially? Always wondering where I can buy good quality ones when they're in season (in NYC area)

Comment by Alex3917 3 hours ago

Email me and I can connect you with some. There is a FB group for folks growing them in the NYC area, plus a list of all the parks where they are planted.

Comment by 3 hours ago

Comment by cmrdporcupine 3 hours ago

No, from those trees we basically only get enough for personal consumption because fruit bearing (so far) is so unreliable.

Also, southern Ontario.

Comment by adm4 4 hours ago

the little beetle that could, and pawpaw's are self-incompatible. -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asimina_triloba#Pollination

Comment by cmrdporcupine 4 hours ago

plenty of sap beetles around here, but i don't tend to see them on my pawpaws. they come around later season when my raspberries ripen

would not rule out the cash crop farming on both sides of me from doing a number on the insects, though i seem to have plenty overall.

unfortunately an excessive number of japanese beetles

Comment by palata 8 hours ago

Ants as well

Comment by Foobar8568 8 hours ago

Yeah I was about to say ants with passion fruit flowers.

Comment by aaron695 5 hours ago

[dead]

Comment by cyberjar 1 hour ago

The giant arum is another example of beetle pollinated flowers. It smells of manure so attracts manure-loving beetles.

With more traditional pollinators, I've always found that a fascinating example of bee pollination that does not involve the plant taking advantage of the insect drinking its nectar is Ophrys Apifera, which has a distinct bee-shape silhouette and relies on the mating instincts of male bees in order to pollinate.

Comment by lopis 1 hour ago

Interesting. I never thought worker bees retained any mating instincts.

Comment by geonineties 1 hour ago

AFAIK worker bees are female. Drones are male and don't actually gather any honey, but just go around looking for a queen to mate with.

Comment by kaybe 1 hour ago

Many bee species are solitary.

Comment by mvidal01 5 hours ago

Some insects gather nectar from a flower and don't pollinate the flower. This is called nectar robbing.

See https://www.backyardecology.net/not-all-flower-visitors-are-...

Comment by baxtr 5 hours ago

What’s the best security control against this robbery?!

Comment by cyberjar 1 hour ago

If it becomes a problem I would imagine that most victim plants will evolve certain defence mechanisms. For example, some insects will simply chew through flowers to reach the nectar stores - so I think in such cases a flower would just evolve a tougher skin, or secrete something that deters insects from doing that.

Comment by rags2riches 4 hours ago

This is what the shape of the flower and its placement of the stamen and pistils are all about.

Comment by adm4 4 hours ago

great idea... How do you make sure there is an exchange.

Comment by TacticalMalice 7 hours ago

The earliest angiosperms appeared in the Cretaceous. This is after the appearance of Hymenoptera (Jurassic) and Diptera (Triassic). While a nice story, this needs additional substantiation. An alternative explanation is likelier imo.

Comment by adrian_b 5 hours ago

The early Hymenoptera were predatory, like wasps still are.

Bees, which feed on pollen and nectar from plant flowers, instead of catching other insects, have evolved much later from wasp-like Hymenoptera, after angiosperms were already widespread.

So the timeline fits into the story.

Comment by xipho 3 hours ago

> were predatory ... ?

Were they? Sawflies are herbivores, and are at minimum share a common ancestor with those that were not herbivores.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...

Comment by adrian_b 32 minutes ago

From your link, the bees are nested within Crabronidae, most of which are predatory wasps, e.g. the beewolves.

So there is no doubt that the immediate ancestors of bees were predatory, like also their more distant ancestors that they share with ants and other kinds of wasps.

Hymenoptera has split early into two branches, one leading to wasps and the other to sawflies.

Most sawflies, as you say, feed on plants. So the question is what kind of food was used by the common ancestor of all Hymenoptera, given that from that ancestor there are two descendant groups, one predatory and one phytophagous (plant-eating).

There is no certain evidence for this, but there are arguments that it is much more likely that the common ancestor was predatory and the sawflies have evolved from that into plant-eating insects.

There are two arguments for this. One is that eating plants is more difficult for animals and all plant-eating animals had to develop special abilities in order to digest plants. Because of this there are a lot of examples among animal groups where the ancestors of a group were predatory, and only some of their descendants have succeeded to transition to feeding on plants.

There are much fewer examples of plant-eating animals that have become predatory again, because once some animals become able to eat plants, they normally have access to a much more abundant source of food than the predatory animals, so reverting to a predatory lifestyle would be disadvantageous. Humans are one of the few exceptions, because their ability to throw weapons at a distance has allowed them to become extremely successful hunters.

The second argument is that Hymenoptera form one of the two branches of Holometabola, the insects with complete metamorphosis. For the orders of insects that belong to the other branch of Holometabola, e.g. for beetles, wherever there is reasonable certainty about the lifestyle of the ancestors, they were also predatory, so it is more likely that the common ancestor of all Holometabola was also predatory.

Comment by palata 8 hours ago

Pretty sure I see many bees on Magnolias.

Comment by Diogenesian 7 hours ago

Right, the whole point of bees as insect pollinators (reflecting that they are recent evolutionary line) is that they are by a healthy margin the most intelligent arthropod. They will inspect then successfully pollinate anything floral over a wide geographic range. Most insect pollinators are instinctually tied to certain species/families.

Comment by rob74 5 hours ago

You mean honeybees? Because there are lots of other (wild) bee species that are very specialized. And they also contradict most of the other things we think we know about bees: they are usually solitary, and they rarely sting (honeybees only do that to protect the hive).

Maybe it's the other way around: humans selected honeybees to "domesticate" because of their versatility (and of course the fact that they produced honey)?

Comment by ggus 5 hours ago

Around my location (southern brazil) there are hundreds of species of stingless bees, living in colonies. Many (most?) produce honey too. I don't dispute that there are also lots of solitary bees. Bees are wonderful and way more diverse than people usually think.

Comment by lanstin 4 hours ago

As is so often the case with biology on earth.

Comment by datakan 7 hours ago

Jumping spiders are smarter

Comment by Diogenesian 5 hours ago

Are they? They are smarter than web-spinning spiders but I've never read anything suggesting they are smarter than bees.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn3357

Comment by datakan 4 hours ago

Obviously you can't give them an IQ test but all the data I've seen (and I am no expert here) shows they are possible the smartest arthropod out there. There are of course different species of jumping spider so mileage may vary.

Comment by neutronicus 3 hours ago

That’s definitely the premise Adrian Tchaikovsky’s Children of Time haha

Comment by nephihaha 5 hours ago

I've watched videos of them stalking prey and they seem extremely intelligent for their size. It's very impressive.

Bees' intelligence relies on them being a hive organism.

Comment by WhyIsItAlwaysHN 6 hours ago

Comment by adrian_b 5 hours ago

Restricting the word "insects" to hexapods is a modern convention that does not have any basis in etymology.

Aristotle used the word "insects" for all terrestrial arthropods and this was followed for millennia until the last two centuries when someone preferred to use "Insecta" instead of "Hexapoda", without giving any reason for this, and others followed this taxonomy.

Even so, the exact extent of the term "insects" varies between biologists, because some do not include all wingless hexapods under "insects".

In an informal discussion, I do not see any mistake in using the word "insects" with its original meaning from Aristotle, which is also the meaning that can be encountered in a lot of old books. For unambiguous animal classification, the word "hexapods" is preferable.

Comment by WhyIsItAlwaysHN 3 hours ago

This is a discussion about animal intelligence. Jumping spiders have a different brain layout than bees, which are formally insects. Other insects are more like the bee than spiders.

So in this case, it matters that spiders are not in fact insects in the strict sense.

Comment by palata 3 hours ago

This is explicitly a thread about arthropods, though.

Quote from above:

> they are by a healthy margin the most intelligent arthropod

Comment by cubefox 6 hours ago

But they are arthropods.

Comment by actionfromafar 7 hours ago

Thanks, I never thought about bees like that. They certainly can use many types of flowers, as evidenced by various sorts of honey. Nitpick: some spiders are pretty darn intelligent and even seem to dream when they sleep, apparently.

Comment by stinos 2 hours ago

> They certainly can use many types of flowers

Note there are various species who're oligolectic meaning they only collect pollen and nectar - and hence pollinate only - a single family or sometimes even single species of plants. Moreover they are usually also better at pollinating than more generalistic species especially honeybees.

Comment by yubblegum 7 hours ago

Now I am musing about spider nightmares.

Comment by oneeyedpigeon 7 hours ago

Thousands of tiny humans crawling all over you...

Comment by amarant 6 hours ago

Or perhaps all of your thousands of children being in peril, having found themselves on a murderous human, with no obvious path to escape as the gigantic scary human swaths hundreds at a time?

Comment by ta8903 6 hours ago

There's a reason the average spider sleepwalks into 8 human mouths a year.

Comment by yubblegum 5 hours ago

You really didn't have to share this.

Comment by 5 hours ago

Comment by globular-toast 7 hours ago

My magnolia is the only thing that seems to attract honeybees, which I rarely see otherwise. The article doesn't seem to justify the "not bees" part, though. I'd imagine bees can pollinate them too.

Comment by pfdietz 3 hours ago

You should plant clover. You'll get plenty of bees.

Comment by akurtzhs 37 minutes ago

Lavender is what we see swarms and swarms of bees come grab in the Pacific Northwest.

Comment by Mistletoe 6 hours ago

Magnolia make one of my favorite smells on earth. We have a huge one in front of a house we have moved away from and back to many times. The intoxicating smell when I mow the leaves and seeds beneath it is something I want to keep forever. I collected the red seeds and put them in a bottle with alcohol and I go back and smell it often to remember. The house flooded four days before closing on selling it, so we got more time with the house. We are wrapping that up and we will say goodbye to that old house, and it’s now quite huge magnolia in the front. I never knew the flowers were pollinated by beetles or why the scent smelled like that. I collected seeds last year and cold stratified a bunch all winter in our fridge. I planted them this spring and 7 survived the process and are now growing in red cups in my new house.

https://imgur.com/a/OAHQCW4

Comment by cachius 6 hours ago

Living fossils, like Ginkos

And Equisetum/Horsetail/Schachtelhalm

Comment by greenlimetea 56 minutes ago

"Drop the tle, it's cleaner."

Comment by tmoertel 6 hours ago

Mountain mints are also pollinated by beetles—and a bazillion other critters. They are extraordinary pollinator magnets. Beetles, bees, flies, wasps, mosquitos (!), moths, butterflies, ...

A recent study of just a few mountain mint species (https://doi.org/10.1080/00222933.2024.2411072) found that they attracted a crazy variety of pollinators. Check the supplementary materials for the full list.

Comment by Sharlin 5 hours ago

Mosquitoes (which are flies) don’t really deserve the exclamation mark, given that the males of all mosquito species live exclusively on nectar, with the females (of most but not all species) augmenting their diet with animal protein in order to produce eggs.

The long, thin proboscis originally evolved for nectar drinking like in many other insects (and some birds!); its use for sucking animal blood was a later adaptation.

Comment by mvidal01 5 hours ago

I have mountain mint growing in my yard and every pollinator imaginable goes to that plant.

Comment by HelloMcFly 4 hours ago

I have slender mountain mint and it used to be a popular pollinator spot... until I planted figwort. Never had anything get action like the figwort!

Comment by vidarh 4 hours ago

I have spearmint in my garden, and the bees and butterflies are literally pushing each other out of the way to get at them some days.

Comment by lorreyfum 3 hours ago

Not old, evolved. Bees were going extinct, remember?