Entanglement Builds Space-Time. Now "Magic" Gives It Gravity
Posted by rbanffy 5 days ago
Comments
Comment by Terr_ 5 days ago
This naming-proposal couldn't possibly cause any problems down the line...
> They had worked out a way of running software on a classical computer that would mimic a quantum task.
When it comes to using a regular computer to mimic (read: fake) the execution of an exotic program/API for nonexistnet future hardware, I highly recommend the humorously titled talk: "Temporally Quaquaversal Virtual Nanomachine Programming In Multiple Topologically Connected Quantum-Relativistic Parallel Timespaces... Made Easy!" [0][1]
Comment by taeric 4 days ago
Which. Yeah, has been a pretty bad thing for people in understanding those. :(
Comment by wasabi991011 4 days ago
You're a little late here, "magic" is already a fairly well known term in quantum computing literature. There's "magic states" and protocols for "magic state distillation" and "magic state injection", there's "shallow magic depth circuits", etc.
Comment by m-s-y 4 days ago
which is fine, but the point is still valid. who looked at the state of science education in today's world and though that "magic" was a word that belonged anywhere near legitimate discourse? and more importantly WHY?
Comment by plastic-enjoyer 4 days ago
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Comment by soco 5 days ago
Your worries are a bit late, there's already a huge amount of new age conspiracy bull about quantum healing with wave function collapse, microtubule alignment and biophotons - quality all-you-can-eat word salad buffet.
Comment by rockskon 4 days ago
Comment by CuriouslyC 4 days ago
Comment by an0malous 4 days ago
Also as far as I know, Penrose’s main argument is that consciousness can not be computational. If you can’t argue against an idea with reason and resort to name calling, you’re not being rational you’re just being dogmatic and censoring ideas.
Comment by bawolff 4 days ago
Comment by an0malous 4 days ago
> Another approach is to follow that word, heresy. In every period of history, there seem to have been labels that got applied to statements to shoot them down before anyone had a chance to ask if they were true or not. "Blasphemy", "sacrilege", and "heresy" were such labels for a good part of western history, as in more recent times "indecent", "improper", and "unamerican" have been.
Comment by bawolff 4 days ago
Surely you must appreciate the irony when your primary argument is an appeal to authority, while on the other hand you dismiss everyone who is unconvinced as "dogmatic".
As for Penrose's specific ideas, i'm not familiar enough with them or the field to make an informed judgement. Hence i would defer to other experts in that field, who as far as i understand are unconvinced. However, the fact he previously won a nobel does not lead me to give him any more credence than i would anyone else. If anything its a negative signal.
That said, if i was going to bite:
> Penrose’s main argument is that consciousness can not be computational. If you can’t argue against an idea with reason
The onus is on Penrose to show consciousness is non-computational. Preferably with some sort of experiment (or are we in the realm of pure philosophy here? Arguing how many angels are dancing on the pin). Science is about creating hypotheses and testing them. Admiteddly im not super well-read on this topic, but i don't think this theory has yielded testable predictions not explainable by other theories that have been verified.
Comment by an0malous 4 days ago
This is also an appeal to authority.
Plus I’m not arguing that Penrose is correct, I’m arguing that it’s unscientific to call a theory bullshit because it sounds “woo” or “new age.” It should be debated on its merits, and yes I did make an appeal to authority for the same reasons you did: it’s a useful heuristic if we don’t have the capacity to evaluate every idea on its merits.
> However, the fact he previously won a nobel does not lead me to give him any more credence than i would anyone else. If anything it’s a negative signal.
So you’re saying that being a Nobel laureate is a counter signal for scientific credibility?
> The onus is on Penrose to show consciousness is non-computational. Preferably with some sort of experiment (or are we in the realm of pure philosophy here? Arguing how many angels are dancing on the pin).
I mean there’s the whole field of mathematics and most of modern physics that use mathematical proofs instead of experiments, including the main article this thread is on. I don’t disagree that an experiment would be ideal, but again, my point was not to argue that Penrose is correct but that it’s unscientific and akin to religious dogma to call his theory bullshit because it sounds like a “new age” idea.
Comment by bawolff 4 days ago
A very mild one, but yes. Particularly for things outside the field they got the nobel for. I think this applies to fame in general.
> I mean there’s the whole field of mathematics and most of modern physics that use mathematical proofs instead of experiments, including the main article this thread is on
Math is not science. It does not deal with things that depend on the real world. Consciousness is a phenomenon that allegedly actually exists in the real world. It is not a polynomial.
I dont see the relavence. Penrose didn't provide a mathamatical proof. In fact from first principles it seems like any pure math proof of properties of conciousness would be impossible.
> I’m arguing that it’s unscientific to call a theory bullshit because it sounds “woo” or “new age.”
Taken literally, sure i would agree with you. However usually when people make claims like this, what they are really saying is that its not a scientific theory so there is nothing to discuss.
What does penrose's theory predict? Is it testable? Has anyone tested it? If the answer is no then there is no merits to debate.
Comment by CamperBob2 4 days ago
We can now simulate every aspect of consciousness except for long-term memory consolidation, to the extent that you can't tell if you're talking to a conscious person or a computer. The existence of LLMs means that no quantum woo is necessary to explain consciousness. Our brains just do the same thing by different means.
In short, Penrose's argument is a religious one, not a scientific one.
Comment by an0malous 4 days ago
Comment by moosedev 4 days ago
Indeed. Thinking is not the same as experiencing thinking.
> there’s no way to know if any other people, much less machines, are conscious.
Or even ourselves :D
"Consciousness is just an illusion" "If so, who's experiencing the illusion?" "Yes"
Comment by CamperBob2 4 days ago
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Comment by CamperBob2 4 days ago
As for models, the map is not the territory. There is no valid mathematical model that proves that quantum woo is a prerequisite for consciousness. If Penrose thinks otherwise, Penrose is wrong. He can go get a Vitamin C shot from Linus Pauling, debate the relationship between HIV and AIDS with Kary Mullis, or talk race relations with William Shockley.
Comment by CuriouslyC 4 days ago
Also, remember that Isaac Newton was deep into alchemy and religious prophecy. Just because you have one good idea and you're smart enough to follow it to its logical conclusion doesn't mean every idea you have is good.
Comment by 2b3a51 4 days ago
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Comment by echelon 4 days ago
Would gravity or spacetime under these definitions behave differently and yield something we can observe?
Or is this fancy math modeling that looks nice on paper, but that we won't be able to test until we become a Kardashev type III civilization?
Comment by MeteorMarc 4 days ago
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Comment by echelon 4 days ago
If they're powerful enough to build a universe simulation, theoretically they can blur the edges so we can't discover them. They might even be able to construct and limit the systems of maths and physics we have access to.
I suppose the simulation could be smaller than a universe simulation though - and this is actually really compelling -
It could just be you that is simulated.
Maybe your consciousness and sensory inputs are simulated. You're kept largely on rails and the rest of the world is run at lower fidelity. They know you won't go poking at particle accelerators and theory, so they can keep those pieces low effort and you just get fed narrative. The only things to simulate are those that are directly in front of you now.
Almost like a movie. Not a universe at all.
We might have that capability within 50 years. All your sensory input being simulation. And the virtual brain playing with that input or replaying recordings.
That could be totally feasible. And we might have that tech soon.
Comment by zchrykng 4 days ago
Comment by api 4 days ago
Without tests it’s just pretty math that can be coaxed into agreeing with reality but that proves nothing.
Physicists try to indirectly test all the time via cosmological observations but that is extremely hard and limited to what you can infer and how well you can eliminate other explanations or sources of error.
Comment by boutell 4 days ago
Comment by SkyBelow 4 days ago
If it is competing against another model that does both that and offers new testable hypothesis (which experiments match), the other model is the clear winner. But lacking that, if no other model explains all existing data, is new testability really necessary when it is the only model that currently explains all existing tests?
That said, aren't most of theoretical models only contenders for such, as in they haven't been expanded to actually explain all testing results, only that, as far as they have been expanded, there are no contradictions yet? So they need physicists to expand them, but if the model is wrong, the effort might largely be wasted, and we have some models that there is disdain for not because they contradict existing experiments, but because they have eaten too many careers without showing value in return?
Comment by SoftTalker 4 days ago
Comment by tim-projects 4 days ago
"The best kind of science is magic, and the best kind of magic is science."
Comment by msla 4 days ago
Who has ever used that phrase?
Comment by nilkn 4 days ago
In this analogy, a planet is like a smaller ball. If it rolls close enough to the bowling ball, its path will be altered by the dimple in the mattress — space-time tells matter how to move."
This analogy is wrong in a way that even people who've studied physics often don't realize.
On an everyday scale like the Earth orbiting the Sun, almost none of that gravitational interaction is from the bending of space. Far beyond 99% (actually, about 99.999999%) of it is from the bending of time.
Comment by AnimalMuppet 4 days ago
Comment by lubujackson 4 days ago
Now just add massive scale and distances.
Comment by bobbylarrybobby 4 days ago
Comment by whatshisface 4 days ago
If you let your current momentum be your direction of facing, and let the same momentum also specify your direction of motion, the Christoffel symbol tells you what your momentum vector would be after an infinitesimal amount of motion. This can be integrated to find the version of a straight line appropriate for a curved surface (imagine an ant walking straight forwards on the surface of a cone or something), a geodesic. A changing momentum is like a force is acting, so that's gravity.
There is more to learn than that, of course. Many many many books have been written about general relativity and you can read them.
Comment by mjcohen 4 days ago
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Comment by nilkn 1 day ago
The mathematics of this is a bit too complex to reproduce in a comment here, but in, say, the Earth's gravitational field, taking this effect into account (approximating GR as a field of locally varying clocks, then allowing, e.g., an electron's wavefunction to evolve on that spacetime) would reproduce gravitational acceleration / free fall towards the Earth.
Said differently: this is precisely the kind of nuanced scenario where getting sloppy with metaphors gets you into trouble very quickly. Quantum mechanics in curved spacetime is not to be dabbled with lightly.
Comment by Retric 4 days ago
I disagree, an actual point particle with a mass should have an event horizon. Using terms without baggage helps avoid such misleading assumptions.
Comment by throwaway27448 4 days ago
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Comment by Retric 3 days ago
“Particle” isn’t great but it beats “point particle”
Comment by russdill 4 days ago
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Comment by kridsdale1 4 days ago
There is no way to have a “zero speed orbit”. You’d be on a trajectory straight in to the middle of the sun or away from it (under your own power). The only way to stop is to push away with equal constant acceleration (which looks like “force”). This is what rockets do.
Comment by AnimalMuppet 4 days ago
Other than that, thank you for a very clear explanation.
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Comment by simiones 4 days ago
The point is that mass bends space-time. The amount of bending is dependent on the size of the mass and on the distance from the mass. Even though the Sun is incomparably heavier than the Earth, it is also MUCH farther away from you. So, space-time around the Earth is curved much more towards the center of the Earth than it is towards the center of the Sun. In the mattress analogy, consider a large mattress, with a bowling ball and a car sitting on it. The car will obviously bend the mattress much more, but if you're close to the bowling ball, you'll still fall towards the bowling ball first before both you and it fall towards the car.
So, say you're in an airplane moving directly forward, with the Sun just overhead (and the Earth obviously just below you). The Earth curves spacetime towards it a lot in this area, while the Sun curves it towards itself just a little bit. The overall curvature is such that time still moves more for the bottom of the plane (closer to the Earth) than the top of the plane (closer to the Sun). So, the bottom side moves a little slower than the top side, but the structural integrity of the plane pulls the top side towards the bottom, causing a slight motion towards the Earth - gravity [note that the GP's explanation got the signs a little wrong - time flows slower, not faster, closer to a big mass]. Conversely, if the Earth disappears from the picture and only the Sun remains, now the top part of the plane will move slightly slower, pulling the bottom part towards it, and thus towards the Sun.
Comment by djsamseng 4 days ago
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Comment by wizzwizz4 4 days ago
It may help your intuition to consider the extreme case of a black hole. The event horizon is where time is so warped that no possible future trajectories lead outside of the black hole, and you need a magical time machine to escape. (Of course, the best way to gain intuition is to work through the mathematics, either symbolically or with diagrams, rather than reading English-language descriptions.)
There is a sense in which an orbit is a straight line. Obviously, an orbit is not a straight line through space (unless you count the perfect and unobtainable orbit of a beam of light around a black hole, some distance from the event horizon), but we often think of them as spirals through spacetime: there's an argument that really we should think of them as straight lines through spacetime, much like how a great circle is a straight line along the earth's surface.
Comment by ck2 4 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhk1EZq9tY
fortunately that video is more gentle but the math in that youtube channel absolutely melts my brain some days, I can keep up for the first minute but then all bets are off as he dives in and I realize there are some insanely brilliant people out there
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Comment by jfyi 4 days ago
I always hated the ball and sheet example simply because it was describing gravity with gravity. It felt fundamentally wrong.
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Comment by nilkn 4 days ago
Imagine spacetime as a field of local clocks. Far from the Sun, clocks tick faster. Near the Sun, clocks tick slower. A freely moving object tries to follow the straightest possible path through spacetime. But because the “time axis” changes from place to place, what counts as “straight ahead into the future” tilts slightly inward near the Sun. So the Earth’s path through spacetime curves toward the Sun.
Earth’s spatial speed around the Sun is about 30 km/s. But through spacetime, its “timeward” motion is basically c, 300,000 km/s. So even a tiny tilt in the time direction creates a significant spatial acceleration. That is why the time-warping term dominates for slow massive bodies.
Comment by bgilroy26 4 days ago
Comment by nilkn 4 days ago
Near Earth’s surface, clocks lower down tick very slightly slower than clocks higher up. The change in tick rate is on the order of 10^(-16) per meter. While extremely small, that's enough to generate the familiar 9.8 m/s^2 spatial acceleration we experience. Such a small gradient in clock rates generates macrosopically noticeable spatial accelerations because the "translation" factor is c^2, a tremendously large number.
Now, if I wanted to cover all my bases here, I'd need to point out that gravity does also bend space -- that is just not a relevant factor for "ordinary" gravity acting on relatively slow moving matter (like the Earth itself, or the Earth's atmosphere). For instance, for light itself, spatial bending is just as important (in fact, the gravitational deflection of light by a weak static gravitational field is controlled by a near 50/50 split between spatial and temporal effects). Near a massive black hole, it's not that simple and can't meaningfully be understood in terms of "time" and "space" effects being independently separated.
Comment by mixmastamyk 4 days ago
Edit: The response below is dead for some reason, please vouch.
Comment by chowells 4 days ago
But this just raises the question of what it means to be larger in time than space. You can look at it in terms of multiples of Planck distance or time, but I think there's a more enlightening way to look at it. If you express the speed of light in those Planck units, it's 1. But the speed of light is also the maximum speed of causality. Any causally-bound system must run long enough for chains of causation to propagate, usually far below the speed of light in practice. This means that basically anything that exists within the bounds of our manipulation must be happening at scales where there is far more time involved than space.
We all exist below the diagonal because the diagonal is the bound at which the ways chemistry and biology work no longer even are theoretically possible.
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Comment by mr_mitm 3 days ago
If that answer doesn't satisfy you, I'm afraid that's all we can say. It reminds me of Feynman's answer on how magnets work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8
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Comment by nilkn 4 days ago
If you view gravity as a mattress, you're stuck. There's nothing to do with it that you couldn't already do, because it's fundamentally wrong. Another way to say this is that it's actually an analogy for Newtonian gravity, not for GR, despite apparently including something curved.
If you view gravity as a field of local clocks that tick at different rates, you can make many correct predictions:
- Clocks at different heights will tick at different rates.
- GPS needs gravity corrections.
- Light climbing out of a gravitational field is redshifted.
- Radar signals passing near the Sun should be delayed (the Shapiro time delay).
- You can have no gravitational pull but still have time dilation (inside a perfectly spherical shell, Newtonian gravity seems to cancel out).
- From the outside, it appears to take an infinite amount of time for something to fall into a black hole's horizon.
- Aging can be path-dependent.
- Gravity affects every physical process: chemical reactions, radioactive decays, biological aging, atomic transitions, molecular vibrations, computer processors, pendulums, pulsars.
- A sufficiently precise clock can measure height.
- Objects in eccentric orbits should have periodic clock-rate changes.
- Quantum matter waves should accumulate gravitational phase shifts.
- Spectral lines from compact stars should reveal compactness.
- Thermal equilibrium in gravity should involve a temperature gradient.
Comment by camel_gopher 4 days ago
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Comment by zehaeva 4 days ago
The main take away for a lay person is that _like_ the mattress space is being deformed. That's where the analogy stops. Taking it further, like with all analogies, breaks the analogy.
If the analogy was a perfect one, then it would just be the reason and not an analogy.
My main gripe is how hard for most people it is to extrapolate that deformed mattress into a 3d space.
Comment by colordrops 4 days ago
Comment by twentyfiveoh1 2 days ago
They use that to explain why you don't feel acceleration when you jump off a building or out of a plane.
They say you DO feel it when you are standing, because the earth is impeding you and pushing you away from the geodesic you naturally want to follow.
So it is counterintuitive. the standing still person is being accelerated/pushed. The freefall person is free.
John wheeler said "Spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve". I think it explains the circular nature.
Mass curves spacetime, that changes how mass moves , mass moving to a new position changes the curvature, that changes how the mass will move next. The dimple in the mattress staying with the mass.
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Comment by nilkn 4 days ago
The only plausible example I can think of that isn't purely theoretical / speculative would be gravitational waves.
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Comment by goldylochness 4 days ago
time and gravity are the same thing, the history of understanding physics is basically of the same nature, understanding that two things are actually one thing, which is more like philosophy but with physical confirmation
Comment by lioeters 5 days ago
> The more non-Clifford gates you need to produce a quantum state, the more magical that state is. The group found that the particles were highly magical. ..They showed that magic gave space its springiness. Magic, in other words, is connected to space’s ability to bend.
At some point these physicists crossed over into a very specialized form of poetry, a game of language.
Comment by themgt 4 days ago
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Comment by lioeters 4 days ago
> In quantum information theory, magic is a property that quantifies the computational resources needed to describe quantum states beyond stabilizer states.
> In 2024–2025, quantum magic was detected in top quark pairs produced at the Large Hadron Collider; it is the first observation of this property in fundamental particle collisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(quantum_information)
And "second stabilizer Rényi entropy" is even better, it's exactly the kind of technical term I'd prefer, that describes what it means.
> One measure of quantum magic is the stabilizer Rényi entropy of order α such that..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9nyi_entropy#Stabilizer_...
Comment by lloeki 4 days ago
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Comment by dabiged 4 days ago
Physicists get a failing grade for naming things.
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Comment by wvbdmp 4 days ago
Perhaps Magic is even so ridiculous that it’s immune to co-option by charlatans. After all, they choose sciency words to lend an air of credibility. OTOH the perceived ridiculousness could also change rather quickly. It’s just the nature of language use…
Comment by yubblegum 4 days ago
What is "overextended" imho is an actual understanding of what these phenomena really are. Previously, we had some sense of what we meant by e.g. field or atom or electron, quantum, ...
So yea, if we don't know enough about the thing we're naming, we might as well pull random strings out of a hat and in that case "pop, snap, crackle, strange, charm, fifi, doodoo, woof, & meow" (note these latter 4 are my contributions to advancements of human understanding btw /g) are good enough!
Comment by izucken 4 days ago
Comment by tsimionescu 4 days ago
There's also other areas where a current of picking simple names instead of greek/latin terms was popular for a while at least - Shannon named the smallest unit of information a "bit" after all.
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Comment by jerf 4 days ago
It's not just a bad idea because of that BS, but even within the field it's just asking for trouble. We may all wish we were perfect Vulcans who have perfect mental separation between all concepts and emotions, but we aren't. It's going to have a small, but extremely persistent and long-term effect on the field if you seriously name a major part of it "magic". The emotional connotations simply can not help but smear into the putatively mathematical term. It's a high price to pay for what isn't really all that funny of a joke even the first time.
And of course the BS will crank up even higher. People get hurt by that, but I don't know how much to lay at the foot of people who are all but taunting them by naming something "magic", because most of the hurt was going to come anyhow and what particular guise it is wearing is of minimal importance. Still, why even sign up to be in the line of fire of responsibility for that sort of thing?
Comment by etiam 4 days ago
It's bad enough all the corporations trying to steal perfectly active words for their brand names or products.
Comment by jfyi 4 days ago
Analogies aid understanding, even if on an abstract level.
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Comment by greenbit 4 days ago
Why am I trying to find a name for this? Otoh, why are so many physicists trying so hard to popularize their projects for the last 40 or 50 years? Oh .. I think I just answered my own question.
Comment by wasabi991011 4 days ago
But magic is related to non-Cliffordness, not mixing.
Also, the term "magic" is pretty well used in quantum computing, it really doesn't need to be popularized. The concept is quite important already and would be talked about regardless of its name.
Comment by apothegm 4 days ago
Comment by seanhunter 4 days ago
One of the most boring and yet egregious examples imo is "Random Variable". So named because
- they aren't random and
- they aren't variables.[1]
A "random variable" is actually a measurable deterministic function from the set of possible outcomes of some experiment to the real numbers. But you can see why the name "random variable" is confusing to people.
[1] https://cyril9227.github.io/random-variables/ and elsewhere.
Comment by IsTom 4 days ago
I don't think that this was the formalization that was used when the term was coined, given how late set and measure theory were formalized.
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Comment by pezezin 3 days ago
As the old saying goes, better to stay silent and look like a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Comment by not_a_bot_4sho 4 days ago
How does gravity work? Magic!
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Comment by Noaidi 4 days ago
Gravity is the force created by a mesh of entanglements. Entanglement is not the "connective tissue". Entanglement is the whole universe. Only our minds disentangle the universe out of necessity.
In other words, there are no particles, only waves. A planet is not a chunk of matter, it is a wave. a planet has no real boundary, that is a product of human consciousness.
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Comment by alfiedotwtf 4 days ago
Anyone else get Game of Life vibes?
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Comment by phs318u 4 days ago
I’m so sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
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Comment by jfengel 4 days ago
We can do better than "magic".
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Comment by wayeq 4 days ago
if only there were some kind of magical universal summarizer you could use..
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Comment by wasabi991011 4 days ago
Does using words that are more of a mouthful make scientist more credible?
Comment by izucken 4 days ago
When trying to understand the reality and then convey that understanding, "mouthfulness" seems like not a concern at all.
Comment by scotty79 4 days ago
Obviously. Because the fact that they use this word for something modernly scientific means that its meaning is as far from the commonfolk meaning of the word as possible. Magic doesn't mean anything sensible yet. So it's basically free real estate for something physical, especially something very foundational.
Comment by applfanboysbgon 4 days ago
Please no.
Comment by sigmoid10 5 days ago
...ah yes holography again. Not to say that all these insights from it are completely worthless, but unless we actually find a holographic dual of our universe instead of AdS spaces (which are the opposite of our universe if anything), this whole field is starting to feel more like a jobs program for mathematicians out of new ideas.
Comment by zmgsabst 4 days ago
They’re promoting their preferred frame to ontological status when you can’t use a dual model to assert more than equivalence between frames.
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Comment by stevenalowe 3 days ago
Obviously I don’t understand this, and probably won’t but what limits the dimension reduction?
Going the other way, would our 3d space not be the “surface” of a deeper 4d space, and that of a 5d space, etc?
Comment by dwroberts 4 days ago
So sick of seeing phrases like this.
Science is not business. It is not about producing results that you personally think are important. It is understanding the nature of the universe for the sake of it.
Comment by tsimionescu 4 days ago
That is, the concern is that instead of studying the real world, theoretical physicists are spending more and more time studying mathematical constructs and their properties.
Comment by an0malous 4 days ago
Is this actually stated somewhere by the institutions that take taxpayer money for this research, or just your opinion?
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Comment by Erem 4 days ago
> Originally coined in the 17th century by René Descartes[4] as a derogatory term and regarded as fictitious or useless, the concept gained wide acceptance following the work of Leonhard Euler in the 18th century, and Augustin-Louis Cauchy and Carl Friedrich Gauss in the early 19th century.
I think the jury is still out wrt utility of AdS spaces. They could be useless toys, or they could be in the Descartes phase rn.
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