Smoking ban for people born after 2008 in the UK agreed

Posted by AndrewDucker 3 hours ago

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Comments

Comment by gcanyon 2 hours ago

There are two separate issues here: 1. will this work (will the UK stop smoking) 2. is this something the UK government should be doing

Setting aside 1 and looking at 2, it seems silly to me to point out that other things (alcohol) that cause problems and are not being restricted. You take the wins where you find them, and the government isn't a magical force that can impose its will on the people arbitrarily. This is obviously the government responding to the general sense of the people (perhaps putting its thumb on the scale). The UK doesn't support cigarettes, so the law gets passed. If someone has a public opinion poll there showing less than 50% support for this, I'd love to see it.

Comment by zbentley 1 hour ago

> other things (alcohol) that cause problems and are not being restricted

Alcohol is heavily restricted, though. You can't sell it to minors, younger minors can't drink it in public, you can't sell/buy/make it above a certain proof, you can only resell it from authorized distributors, it is taxes, and so on.

Sure, banning cigarettes for a specific generation is a much more stringent restriction, but plenty of other restrictions exist.

Comment by noduerme 40 minutes ago

what if they told you your kids would never be allowed to have a drink?

Comment by noduerme 41 minutes ago

>> the government isn't a magical force that can impose its will on the people arbitrarily

You must live in a democracy. If you ever lived in a country where the government curtailed freedoms by fiat, you'd understand that it can and it will. I happened to be living in Vietnam when the government just randomly decided one day that smoking would be banned everywhere, effective immediately. You might think that's simply putting a thumb on the scale; but you also haven't tried to visit the New York Times website from there and later found yourself in a room with officials asking for all your passwords. And clearly you're not familiar with the preferred way of clearing traffic jams, which is driving a jeep through a crowd of motorbikes while a guy with a long bamboo cane whacks anyone who's in the way.

Thumb on the scale my ass. Totalitarianism is control over the little things.

Comment by squigz 1 hour ago

From the government's perspective, this may (or may not) be silly.

But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.

Comment by LeChuck 1 hour ago

Sure, maybe, arguably. Does it matter though? A world without smoking is still better than a world with smoking, right?

Comment by noduerme 39 minutes ago

A world without hypocrisy would be better still.

Comment by squigz 25 minutes ago

Perhaps. The viability of that aside, I would rather attempt to create that world with things like education rather than the government mandating it. That tends not to work out as intended.

Comment by drcongo 38 minutes ago

Don't forget gambling. Though given that the gambling lobby were the only donor's to Starmer's leadership campaign that out-donated the pro-Israel lobbyists, I wouldn't bet on them doing something about it. Pun intended.

Edit: just realised I posted under the wrong comment. Doh.

Comment by brador 1 hour ago

We know the dangers of second hand smoke. Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

Comment by hyperpape 1 hour ago

With all due respect, this is completely wrong.

There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real.

Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved.

Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.

Comment by wookmaster 1 hour ago

If you just ignore alcohol fueled violence, birth defects, deaths from drivers hitting people and cars and the emotional health toll to others from dealing with an alcoholic, sure.

Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago

iirc alcohol is the drug with the highest amount of 3rd party harm due to the high number of people beating their spouse, children and sometimes random strangers under the influence. (+ 3rd party property, car crashes, ...) Keep in mind this was evaluated with current laws, which bans most kinds of indoor-smoking.

Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.

Comment by guzfip 1 hour ago

> Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.

Comment by hagbard_c 1 hour ago

That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly.

Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.

Comment by Ylpertnodi 1 hour ago

You've probably never been out on a Friday night in the Uk.

Comment by drcongo 35 minutes ago

This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes, it's a very valid point.

Comment by squigz 1 hour ago

It doesn't? That should be good news for victims of drunk driving, and the families of abusive drunks.

Comment by afavour 1 hour ago

There’s still a difference, surely? Drinking alcohol can lead to drunk driving and it can lead to abuse. Thankfully in the vast majority of instances it doesn’t.

Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.

Comment by noduerme 30 minutes ago

Oh, the hysteria people get over smelling a whiff of secondhand smoke. While you walk down a street full of diesel trucks, inhaling microplastics, microwaving your food in plastic, drinking water from plastic bottles, eating processed foods with nitrates, corn sugar soaked in round-up, standing out in the sun, getting body scans and dental X-rays.

You know the only people who got lung cancer from secondhand smoke were people who worked in airplanes and bars and casinos for 20 years and were in condensed, extremely smoky environments day in and day out, right? I smoke. I understand that everything is a cumulative risk factor. The absolute crazy freak-out hysterical reaction people have to cigarette smoke versus all the things I just named is purely a product of decades of expensively paid-for indoctrination. No one in their right mind would argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer, but if you literally think you are being harmed by smelling smoke, you must surely have a problem living in this world without a filter on your face at all times, because there is a lot more poisonous shit you encounter every single day, everywhere you go - and that's if you're lucky enough not to work in a plastics factory or somewhere that makes microwave popcorn.

[edit] While I'm at it, I just want to give a shout-out to all the people I know who heat up teflon pans before cooking in them. Who would never let someone smoke in their kitchen!

Comment by afavour 20 minutes ago

> purely a product of decades of expensively paid-for indoctrination

No, it's because being around a smoker is deeply unpleasant.

I'm old enough to remember going out before the indoor smoking ban took effect. The next morning I'd step into the shower and the smell of smoke would fill the bathroom as I washed it out of my hair. I would have a sore throat. It was all absolutely disgusting and we're so much better off where we are today. I'm sorry that your vice of choice is such a gross one.

Comment by squigz 1 hour ago

I'm not saying there's no difference. I just don't that difference is as pronounced as some people think, and I don't think it excuses the apparent double standard.

Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence.

Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children.

Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.

Comment by afavour 1 hour ago

> there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke

And there are already various laws designed to prevent drunk driving and drunk domestic abuse.

I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.

Comment by squigz 58 minutes ago

> I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.

Sure, and this is why I put aside the issue of whether the government is doing the "right" thing in its position and focused on the people who it supposedly reflects - because it doesn't make sense to me that one is more acceptable than the other to an individual, and thinking so doesn't seem to reflect any sort of realistic view on alcohol and its impact on society, while holding cigarettes to a much higher standard.

Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago

I think it is also part of a trend. More and more control over people's lives, more and more bans.

Beyond whether something is "bad for you", the key aspect in a free society is whether the State should decide for you (we're entrusted with the right to vote, after all).

Demolition Man has turned out to be the most accurate prediction of the future regarding those issues among all the 90s movies. Quite interesting.

Comment by afavour 1 hour ago

I see smoking as a separate category owing to the existence of second hand smoke. Smoking in a room with other people adversely affects those people. I think government is the correct body to be intervening in that scenario.

Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago

That's not a separate category, that's the general principle in a free society: There is a limit to "doing what you want" when it impacts others/imposes on them.

That's why smoking is already heavily regulated in order to limit and minimise the impact that your choice has on others.

Comment by LtWorf 1 hour ago

In sweden it's forbidden to smoke at public transport stops. Nobody cares though so you often have to choose between cancer or getting soaked.

Comment by flowerthoughts 15 minutes ago

In a few years, they'll realize that the savings from public health care now requires an an even higher amount of money poured into the police, customs and justice systems to enforce it. Because suddenly, there are these weirdos trying to sell it in dark places. Who could anticipate that?

But that's for another government to deal with, of course. Not our problem. Oh, and the future government will be happy to announce they are giving funding that will go to new jobs!

I propose a ban on people that use bans as a brain-less cheap way of fixing complex issues.

Comment by rt56a 3 minutes ago

> an even higher amount of money poured into the police

Given the massive cost smoking imposes on the health sector, I find it hard to believe that's remotely possible.

Comment by xyzal 1 minute ago

This enforcement costs argument is wrong. The point is not to enforce such a ban, it's to signal where the collective consensus is.

Comment by olalonde 31 minutes ago

What about tourists and foreigners? Most smokers can't go more than a few hours without smoking... This will surely lead to a large black market.

Comment by bcjdjsndon 2 hours ago

Alcohol costs the UK 4-5x more than smoking. Coincidentally, it's the upper classes drug of choice. Must be a coincidence though

Comment by olalonde 23 minutes ago

At least alcohol produces side effects that people enjoy. Smoking pretty much only has negative side effects once you get hooked.

Comment by pixl97 1 hour ago

As the US found out, alcohol is very very hard to ban because it is very very easy to make.

Comment by afavour 1 hour ago

I’d say cocaine is the upper class drug of choice. Regardless, alcohol is every classes drug of choice. The debate over whether the government is hypocritical or not kind of ignores the reality that British voters don’t want alcohol banned. So the government isn’t going to ban it. Which is broadly what you’d want a government to do!

Comment by LtWorf 2 hours ago

Sitting in a room with someone drinking doesn't give you cancer.

Comment by cheeseomlit 1 hour ago

Just ban smoking indoors then

Comment by LtWorf 1 hour ago

It gives you cancer outdoors too!

Comment by awakeasleep 2 hours ago

Im curious how the industry allowed this. Seems like a tremendous amount of lobbying money would oppose it. There must be real story there, somewhere.

Comment by walthamstow 1 hour ago

The cigarette lobbyists are not what they used to be. A pack is £15+ of mostly tax, beige green colour, and has gruesome health warning images. They "let" all that happen.

I assume all the ones who were young enough to have worked tobacco at its peak are now working for Meta, OpenAI or Flutter.

Comment by afavour 1 hour ago

Are you in America? I only ask because this mindset, that lobbyists are capable of squashing any law they dislike, is not internationally universal.

Not to say lobbyists don’t have an effect in the UK, they do. But the US has a particularly egregious setup.

Comment by luizfzs 1 hour ago

The real story may be that even despite heavy lobbying, they are trying to do something that has the potential to benefit the population, with the added benefit of reducing some of the load on health care system caused by this.

As we know, smoking can cause lots of problems, including for babies if the mother smokes during pregnancy.

Comment by amriksohata 1 hour ago

this

Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago

They ban buying cigarettes, not nicotine in general, correct? In that case, I would compare it to making catalytic converters mandatory in new cars in the 1970s.

You still can pickup nicotine consumption, but with xx % less carcinogens :)

Comment by 1 hour ago

Comment by d--b 10 minutes ago

<sarcasm> Oh yeah, banning people who can't vote yet, genius.

I think next we should ban them from eating butter, and you know, riding mountain bikes. Just protecting them you know.

What about us? Oh us, we're addicted, so... Well, you just can't take that away from us, can you? I mean there would be riots. But the kids, they wouldn't know what they're missing, right?

</sarcasm>

This is such a weird law. I doubt this would be constitutional in France. You can't just pass a law that affects some people but not others. It's against the principle of equality.

Comment by joegibbs 2 hours ago

Drinking has been decided to be totally fine though, no need to ban that - probably because it's unfashionable to smoke, and the kind of people who come up with these laws find it uncouth. It will also be ridiculous in a few years when the UK inevitably decides to legalise marijuana - totally fine to smoke a joint, but don't you dare put any of that tobacco in it!

Comment by adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago

Drinking doesn’t affect others as direct as smoking does.

Most of the indoor smoking bans in the U.S. have been based entirely on the fact that second hand smoke affects the employees who are forced to be there.

Further, drinking has a far deeper cultural resonance, so smoking is clearly the lower hanging fruit.

And it’s not like the UK has not been taking action against drinking. For example, they’ve imposed minimum alcohol taxes which have been directly linked to lower consumption.

Comment by gcanyon 2 hours ago

Drinking affects others much more than smoking does, it's just that it doesn't affect random strangers. In a study of the harms of various substances, alcohol came out on top by a mile for the damage it does to the family and others close to the drinker.

I should qualify the above: it doesn't affect random strangers as often as second-hand smoke does. But drunk driving and drunk violence are a thing, and both can affect anyone.

Comment by joegibbs 1 hour ago

Nobody was ever attacked on the street by a tobacco-addled stranger at 3 in the morning though. Besides, they're not banning indoor smoking, they're banning it entirely - including vaping and other nicotine products.

Comment by pixl97 1 hour ago

Nicotine is insanely addictive, so ya.

Alcohol is very difficult to ban as you can take almost any kind of sugar feedstock and turn it into alcohol.

Comment by tialaramex 1 hour ago

Right. Booze is straight up naturally occurring, albeit rare. That's why you get drunk monkeys and other wildlife. The animal is like "Actually this moldy fruit is pretty good" - they did absolutely nothing to manufacture booze but here it is.

Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago

Newsflash: Its possible to consume "marijuana" w/o smoking it (just like nicotine!).

Comment by joegibbs 1 hour ago

They're not banning smoking in general (which would be impossible anyway, what are they going to do, make it illegal to set something on fire and breathe it in?), they're banning nicotine products. I also really doubt that they will legalise weed and then say "but of course you're not allowed to smoke it, edibles only".

Comment by Sweepi 56 minutes ago

"they're banning nicotine products" If I am not mistaken, they are banning to sale of tobacco, not nicotine:

"[..]provision prohibiting the sale of tobacco to people born on or after 1 January 2009[..]"

"I also really doubt that they will legalise weed and then say "but of course you're not allowed to smoke it, edibles only"."

I mean, there is still vaporization, so it wouldn't be edibles only?

Comment by comrade1234 1 hour ago

Are they going to continue selling cigarettes and vapes for people born before that date. I've always found the career as a prohibition smuggler a somewhat romantic notion so at some point I may be able to take it up.

Comment by tgv 1 hour ago

Ah yes, smuggling lung cancer. How romantic.

Comment by alsetmusic 1 hour ago

As a former smoker (who quit for seven years and regrets taking it up again), and as a present-day vape user, wtf. This is a clear restriction on liberty. It may be stupid that I do it. Just like many stupid decisions (junk food included), it ought to be my right to decide how to live.

Cut off production so cigarettes are no longer made or imported. Don't block me from them while letting others have them. (Not in UK)

It'd be kinda funny to see an early 1900s / USA-style mafia / gangster resurgence of bootleggers over cigs in the UK. Much lower stakes, but black markets are a thing.

Edit: added "while letting others have them"

Comment by plqbfbv 42 minutes ago

> This is a clear restriction on liberty. ... Just like many stupid decisions (junk food included), it ought to be my right to decide how to live.

I guess that liberty was plenty abused on every non-smoker in a non-smoking area, that ended up coughing in clouds of smoke anyway. Smoking affects everyone around you whether you want it or not, and while you may smoke for 50 years and end up being perfectly healthy, some may get cancer from it, even for a very small dose.

Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago

>This is a clear restriction on liberty.

So is banning the sale of leaded gasoline.

Comment by neogodless 1 hour ago

You can kind of tell when people think about only themselves or the community when they present arguments for things like smoking and vaccination.

"I don't want to be controlled" is a perfectly valid argument, and I prefer humans can make choices for themselves and have reasonable autonomy when it does not have a negative affect on others.

Vaccination and smoking affects people around you. Drinking does too - in certain cases, but much less directly, in most cases. For example, drinking and operating vehicles is already illegal. Drinking and punching someone is already illegal!

Comment by xienze 1 hour ago

> I prefer humans can make choices for themselves and have reasonable autonomy when it does not have a negative affect on others.

How far do you want to take this? Your choice of diet may have a negative effect on others by way of having to pay for additional medical care.

Comment by neogodless 1 hour ago

Is taking concepts to logical extremes a good way to govern?

(No.)

But are you saying we don't care if things have negative effect on people? If we go to extremes, well then obviously everyone should have 100% autonomy? Oops that doesn't work.

So, this is the hard part - you have to find balance, compromise, a reasonable middle ground. That's always going to be the hard part. Not black or white, but the grey areas.

Comment by josefritzishere 1 hour ago

Someone is not learning from history.

Comment by threepts 1 hour ago

next thing you know they'll also ban murder for people born after 2008

UK becomes the safest country in the world, peace forever

Comment by subjectsigma 1 hour ago

Natural consequence of socialized medicine. If I’m paying for your healthcare then I (and by extension the state) get a say in basically every aspect of your life.

Time to ban alcohol, marijuana, Tylenol, fatty foods, sugar, candles, campfires, fireworks, food coloring, bicycles, playgrounds, cars, cell phones, and anything else that might be harmful

Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago

In the UK tobacco is heavily taxed and those taxes bring in more money than the cost on the healthcare service.

Comment by falcor84 56 minutes ago

Interesting - do you have a link about the financial accounting around this?

Comment by theturtle 49 minutes ago

[dead]

Comment by amriksohata 1 hour ago

Kinda pointless the government looking muscular on this when the real issue has moved on anyway to vaping, access to weed etc. The industry lobbying wont come after the govt anyway so no blocks right, as they are getting profit from elsewhere

Comment by pech0rin 2 hours ago

This is insanely dumb. Everyone knows that smoking is bad for you. So if people want to do it anyway who cares. I understand the cafe and indoor space bans but not allowing anyone to do it seems stupid. I don’t smoke but UK has really gone off the deep end recently with social controls, what is the point?

Comment by halfdan 2 hours ago

I, a non-smoker, would like to not walk through clouds of smoke.

Comment by alchemism 1 hour ago

That's what I say when I breathe car exhaust. Why cannot all combustion engines be removed from society for my health preference?

Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago

That's one of the reasons they are banned from selling new ones starting in 2035.

Comment by tgv 1 hour ago

> So [...] who cares.

I do. I prefer people not to get lung cancer, among other afflications. And for no benefit that I can think of.

I don't live in the UK, but I say: good to them, and boo to you, for your misanthropic attitude.

Comment by apetrov 1 hour ago

i this context, "who cares" means "whose business". and the answer by the western society is that no ones but person in question.

bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.

Comment by tgv 1 hour ago

> i this context, "who cares" means "whose business".

I don't think so, but if the original poster is around...

Anyway, it's the government's business to keep their population out of trouble.

> bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.

Contrary to popular opinion, discrimination isn't illegal or even undesirable per se. In this case, it has a health benefit.

Comment by tonyedgecombe 2 hours ago

It's insanely dumb in the same way prohibition was insanely dumb in the US during the twenties.

Comment by LtWorf 2 hours ago

Heroin is bad as well and it's forbidden on account of that.

Comment by noduerme 3 hours ago

I hate how British people say "agreed" as if it implies "was" and "to". And lots of other things it implies, such as who, when and why.

Comment by thinkingemote 2 hours ago

I think it's short for "agreed upon"

Comment by noduerme 2 hours ago

Well they're English, they invented the language. I don't know why they're trampling on it.

Comment by seritools 2 hours ago

headlines often trade legibility for terseness, sometimes a bit too much though :)

EDIT: Headlinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headline#Headlinese

Comment by jjgreen 2 hours ago

Languages evolve, capiche?