Smoking ban for people born after 2008 in the UK agreed
Posted by AndrewDucker 3 hours ago
Comments
Comment by gcanyon 2 hours ago
Setting aside 1 and looking at 2, it seems silly to me to point out that other things (alcohol) that cause problems and are not being restricted. You take the wins where you find them, and the government isn't a magical force that can impose its will on the people arbitrarily. This is obviously the government responding to the general sense of the people (perhaps putting its thumb on the scale). The UK doesn't support cigarettes, so the law gets passed. If someone has a public opinion poll there showing less than 50% support for this, I'd love to see it.
Comment by zbentley 1 hour ago
Alcohol is heavily restricted, though. You can't sell it to minors, younger minors can't drink it in public, you can't sell/buy/make it above a certain proof, you can only resell it from authorized distributors, it is taxes, and so on.
Sure, banning cigarettes for a specific generation is a much more stringent restriction, but plenty of other restrictions exist.
Comment by noduerme 40 minutes ago
Comment by noduerme 41 minutes ago
You must live in a democracy. If you ever lived in a country where the government curtailed freedoms by fiat, you'd understand that it can and it will. I happened to be living in Vietnam when the government just randomly decided one day that smoking would be banned everywhere, effective immediately. You might think that's simply putting a thumb on the scale; but you also haven't tried to visit the New York Times website from there and later found yourself in a room with officials asking for all your passwords. And clearly you're not familiar with the preferred way of clearing traffic jams, which is driving a jeep through a crowd of motorbikes while a guy with a long bamboo cane whacks anyone who's in the way.
Thumb on the scale my ass. Totalitarianism is control over the little things.
Comment by squigz 1 hour ago
But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.
Comment by LeChuck 1 hour ago
Comment by noduerme 39 minutes ago
Comment by squigz 25 minutes ago
Comment by drcongo 38 minutes ago
Edit: just realised I posted under the wrong comment. Doh.
Comment by brador 1 hour ago
Comment by hyperpape 1 hour ago
There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real.
Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved.
Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.
Comment by wookmaster 1 hour ago
Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago
Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.
Comment by guzfip 1 hour ago
Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.
Comment by hagbard_c 1 hour ago
Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.
Comment by Ylpertnodi 1 hour ago
Comment by drcongo 35 minutes ago
Comment by squigz 1 hour ago
Comment by afavour 1 hour ago
Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.
Comment by noduerme 30 minutes ago
You know the only people who got lung cancer from secondhand smoke were people who worked in airplanes and bars and casinos for 20 years and were in condensed, extremely smoky environments day in and day out, right? I smoke. I understand that everything is a cumulative risk factor. The absolute crazy freak-out hysterical reaction people have to cigarette smoke versus all the things I just named is purely a product of decades of expensively paid-for indoctrination. No one in their right mind would argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer, but if you literally think you are being harmed by smelling smoke, you must surely have a problem living in this world without a filter on your face at all times, because there is a lot more poisonous shit you encounter every single day, everywhere you go - and that's if you're lucky enough not to work in a plastics factory or somewhere that makes microwave popcorn.
[edit] While I'm at it, I just want to give a shout-out to all the people I know who heat up teflon pans before cooking in them. Who would never let someone smoke in their kitchen!
Comment by afavour 20 minutes ago
No, it's because being around a smoker is deeply unpleasant.
I'm old enough to remember going out before the indoor smoking ban took effect. The next morning I'd step into the shower and the smell of smoke would fill the bathroom as I washed it out of my hair. I would have a sore throat. It was all absolutely disgusting and we're so much better off where we are today. I'm sorry that your vice of choice is such a gross one.
Comment by squigz 1 hour ago
Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence.
Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children.
Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.
Comment by afavour 1 hour ago
And there are already various laws designed to prevent drunk driving and drunk domestic abuse.
I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.
Comment by squigz 58 minutes ago
Sure, and this is why I put aside the issue of whether the government is doing the "right" thing in its position and focused on the people who it supposedly reflects - because it doesn't make sense to me that one is more acceptable than the other to an individual, and thinking so doesn't seem to reflect any sort of realistic view on alcohol and its impact on society, while holding cigarettes to a much higher standard.
Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago
Beyond whether something is "bad for you", the key aspect in a free society is whether the State should decide for you (we're entrusted with the right to vote, after all).
Demolition Man has turned out to be the most accurate prediction of the future regarding those issues among all the 90s movies. Quite interesting.
Comment by afavour 1 hour ago
Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago
That's why smoking is already heavily regulated in order to limit and minimise the impact that your choice has on others.
Comment by LtWorf 1 hour ago
Comment by flowerthoughts 15 minutes ago
But that's for another government to deal with, of course. Not our problem. Oh, and the future government will be happy to announce they are giving funding that will go to new jobs!
I propose a ban on people that use bans as a brain-less cheap way of fixing complex issues.
Comment by rt56a 3 minutes ago
Given the massive cost smoking imposes on the health sector, I find it hard to believe that's remotely possible.
Comment by xyzal 1 minute ago
Comment by olalonde 31 minutes ago
Comment by bcjdjsndon 2 hours ago
Comment by olalonde 23 minutes ago
Comment by pixl97 1 hour ago
Comment by afavour 1 hour ago
Comment by LtWorf 2 hours ago
Comment by cheeseomlit 1 hour ago
Comment by LtWorf 1 hour ago
Comment by awakeasleep 2 hours ago
Comment by walthamstow 1 hour ago
I assume all the ones who were young enough to have worked tobacco at its peak are now working for Meta, OpenAI or Flutter.
Comment by afavour 1 hour ago
Not to say lobbyists don’t have an effect in the UK, they do. But the US has a particularly egregious setup.
Comment by luizfzs 1 hour ago
As we know, smoking can cause lots of problems, including for babies if the mother smokes during pregnancy.
Comment by amriksohata 1 hour ago
Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago
You still can pickup nicotine consumption, but with xx % less carcinogens :)
Comment by d--b 10 minutes ago
I think next we should ban them from eating butter, and you know, riding mountain bikes. Just protecting them you know.
What about us? Oh us, we're addicted, so... Well, you just can't take that away from us, can you? I mean there would be riots. But the kids, they wouldn't know what they're missing, right?
</sarcasm>
This is such a weird law. I doubt this would be constitutional in France. You can't just pass a law that affects some people but not others. It's against the principle of equality.
Comment by joegibbs 2 hours ago
Comment by adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago
Most of the indoor smoking bans in the U.S. have been based entirely on the fact that second hand smoke affects the employees who are forced to be there.
Further, drinking has a far deeper cultural resonance, so smoking is clearly the lower hanging fruit.
And it’s not like the UK has not been taking action against drinking. For example, they’ve imposed minimum alcohol taxes which have been directly linked to lower consumption.
Comment by gcanyon 2 hours ago
I should qualify the above: it doesn't affect random strangers as often as second-hand smoke does. But drunk driving and drunk violence are a thing, and both can affect anyone.
Comment by joegibbs 1 hour ago
Comment by pixl97 1 hour ago
Alcohol is very difficult to ban as you can take almost any kind of sugar feedstock and turn it into alcohol.
Comment by tialaramex 1 hour ago
Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago
Comment by joegibbs 1 hour ago
Comment by Sweepi 56 minutes ago
"[..]provision prohibiting the sale of tobacco to people born on or after 1 January 2009[..]"
"I also really doubt that they will legalise weed and then say "but of course you're not allowed to smoke it, edibles only"."
I mean, there is still vaporization, so it wouldn't be edibles only?
Comment by comrade1234 1 hour ago
Comment by tgv 1 hour ago
Comment by alsetmusic 1 hour ago
Cut off production so cigarettes are no longer made or imported. Don't block me from them while letting others have them. (Not in UK)
It'd be kinda funny to see an early 1900s / USA-style mafia / gangster resurgence of bootleggers over cigs in the UK. Much lower stakes, but black markets are a thing.
Edit: added "while letting others have them"
Comment by plqbfbv 42 minutes ago
I guess that liberty was plenty abused on every non-smoker in a non-smoking area, that ended up coughing in clouds of smoke anyway. Smoking affects everyone around you whether you want it or not, and while you may smoke for 50 years and end up being perfectly healthy, some may get cancer from it, even for a very small dose.
Comment by Sweepi 1 hour ago
So is banning the sale of leaded gasoline.
Comment by neogodless 1 hour ago
"I don't want to be controlled" is a perfectly valid argument, and I prefer humans can make choices for themselves and have reasonable autonomy when it does not have a negative affect on others.
Vaccination and smoking affects people around you. Drinking does too - in certain cases, but much less directly, in most cases. For example, drinking and operating vehicles is already illegal. Drinking and punching someone is already illegal!
Comment by xienze 1 hour ago
How far do you want to take this? Your choice of diet may have a negative effect on others by way of having to pay for additional medical care.
Comment by neogodless 1 hour ago
(No.)
But are you saying we don't care if things have negative effect on people? If we go to extremes, well then obviously everyone should have 100% autonomy? Oops that doesn't work.
So, this is the hard part - you have to find balance, compromise, a reasonable middle ground. That's always going to be the hard part. Not black or white, but the grey areas.
Comment by josefritzishere 1 hour ago
Comment by threepts 1 hour ago
UK becomes the safest country in the world, peace forever
Comment by subjectsigma 1 hour ago
Time to ban alcohol, marijuana, Tylenol, fatty foods, sugar, candles, campfires, fireworks, food coloring, bicycles, playgrounds, cars, cell phones, and anything else that might be harmful
Comment by mytailorisrich 1 hour ago
Comment by falcor84 56 minutes ago
Comment by theturtle 49 minutes ago
Comment by amriksohata 1 hour ago
Comment by pech0rin 2 hours ago
Comment by halfdan 2 hours ago
Comment by tgv 1 hour ago
I do. I prefer people not to get lung cancer, among other afflications. And for no benefit that I can think of.
I don't live in the UK, but I say: good to them, and boo to you, for your misanthropic attitude.
Comment by apetrov 1 hour ago
bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.
Comment by tgv 1 hour ago
I don't think so, but if the original poster is around...
Anyway, it's the government's business to keep their population out of trouble.
> bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.
Contrary to popular opinion, discrimination isn't illegal or even undesirable per se. In this case, it has a health benefit.
Comment by tonyedgecombe 2 hours ago
Comment by LtWorf 2 hours ago
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Comment by seritools 2 hours ago
EDIT: Headlinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headline#Headlinese
Comment by jjgreen 2 hours ago