OpenSSL 4.0.0
Posted by petecooper 4 days ago
Comments
Comment by capitol_ 4 days ago
Comment by bombcar 4 days ago
Comment by arcfour 4 days ago
Comment by 1vuio0pswjnm7 4 days ago
What if he wanted to use it for requesting blog.cloudflare.com
;; ANSWER SECTION:
blog.cloudflare.com. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . alpn="h3,h2" ipv4hint=104.18.28.7,104.18.29.7 ipv6hint=2606:4700::6812:1c07,2606:4700::6812:1d07
Where are the ECH keysFor example,
;; ANSWER SECTION:
test.defo.ie. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . ech="AEb+DQBCqQAgACBlm7cfDx/gKuUAwRTe+Y9MExbIyuLpLcgTORIdi69uewAEAAEAAQATcHVibGljLnRlc3QuZGVmby5pZQAA"
or ;; ANSWER SECTION:
cloudflare-ech.com. 300 IN HTTPS 1 . alpn="h3,h2" ipv4hint=104.18.10.118,104.18.11.118 ech="AEX+DQBBpQAgACB/RU5hAC5mXe3uOZtNY58Bc8UU1cd4QBxQzqirMlWZeQAEAAEAAQASY2xvdWRmbGFyZS1lY2guY29tAAA=" ipv6hint=2606:4700::6812:a76,2606:4700::6812:b76
It's true one can "use it today". One could use it for the past several years as well. The software has been around for a whileBut ECH has never been consistently enabled for the general public beyond a small number of test sites that are only for testing ECH
Comment by bombcar 4 days ago
Comment by altairprime 4 days ago
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/sec_proto...
Presumably anyone besides Safari can opt-in to that testing today, but I wouldn’t ship it worldwide and expect nice outcomes until (I suspect) after this fall’s 27 releases. Maybe someone could PR the WebKit team to add that feature flag in the meantime?
Comment by kro 4 days ago
But, in a personal/single website server, ech does not really add privacy, adversaries can still observe the IP metadata and compare what's hosted there. The real benefits are on huge cloud hosting platforms.
Comment by Bender 4 days ago
"Nginx 1.30 incorporates all of the changes from the Nginx 1.29.x mainline branch to provide a lot of new functionality like Multipath TCP (MPTCP)."
"Nginx 1.30 also adds HTTP/2 to backend and Encrypted Client Hello (ECH), sticky sessions support for upstreams, and the default proxy HTTP version being set to HTTP/1.1 with Keep-Alive enabled."
But, in a personal/single website server, ech does not really add privacy, adversaries can still observe the IP metadata and compare what's hosted there
I don't quite follow. I have dozens of throw-away silly hobby domains. I can use any of them as the outer-SNI. How is someone observing the traffic going to know the inner-SNI domain unless someone builds a massive database of all known inner+outer combinations which can be changed on a whim? ECH requires DOH so unless the ISP has tricked the user into using their DOH end-point they can't see the HTTPS resource record.
Comment by ameliaquining 4 days ago
Comment by Bender 4 days ago
If I had a long running site I could do the same thing by having multiple font-end caching nodes using HAProxy or NGinx that come and go but I acknowledge others may not have the time to do that and most probably would not.
Comment by duskwuff 4 days ago
Comment by Bender 4 days ago
Comment by ameliaquining 4 days ago
Comment by Bender 4 days ago
That's cool. I only make my own mini-CDN's.
There is always the option to put sites on a .onion domain but I don't host anything nearly exciting or controversial enough. For text that's probably a good option. I don't know if Tor is fast enough for binary or streaming sites yet. No idea how many here even know how to access a .onion site.
I will test out your theory and see if anyone bothers to track my IP addresses and does anything with them. I probably need to come up with something edgy that people would want to block. Idea's for something edgy?
Comment by throw_a_grenade 4 days ago
Comment by tialaramex 4 days ago
So e.g. they'd work for exactly the way you use say TLS 1.0 in the Netscape 4 web browser which was popular when the middlebox was first marketed, or maybe they cope with exactly the features used in Safari but since Safari never sets this bit flag here they reject all connections with that flag.
What TLS learned is summarized as "have one joint and keep it well oiled" and they invented a technique to provide that oiling for one working joint in TLS, GREASE, Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility. The idea of GREASE is, if a popular client (say, the Chrome web browser) just insists on uttering random nonsense extensions then to survive in the world where that happens you must not freak out when there are extensions you do not understand. If your middlebox firmware freaks out when seeing this happen, your customers say "This middlebox I bought last week is broken, I want my money back" so you have to spend a few cents more to never do that.
But, since random nonsense is now OK, we can ship a new feature and the middleboxes won't freak out, so long as our feature looks similar enough to GREASE.
ECH achieves the same idea, when a participating client connects to a server which does not support ECH as far as it knows, it acts exactly the same as it would for ECH except, since it has neither a "real" name to hide nor a key to encrypt that name it fills the space where those would fit with random gibberish. As a server, you get this ECH extension you don't understand, and it is filled with random gibberish you also don't understand, this seems fine because you didn't understand any of it (or maybe you've switched it off, either way it's not relevant to you).
But for a middlebox this ensures they can't tell whether you're doing ECH. So, either they reject every client which could do ECH, which again that's how you get a bunch of angry customers, or, they accept such clients and so ECH works.
Comment by ekr____ 4 days ago
Comment by philipnee 4 days ago
Comment by kybishop 4 days ago
Comment by jlericson 1 day ago
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Comment by Bender 4 days ago
Russia blocked it for Cloudflare because the outer SNI was obviously just for ECH but that won't stop anyone from using generic or throw-away domains as the outer SNI. As for reasonable I don't quite follow. Only censorious countries or ISP's would do such a thing.
I can foresee Firewall vendors possibly adding a category for known outer-SNI domains used for ECH but at some point that list would be quite cumbersome and may run into the same problems as blocking CDN IP addresses.
Comment by kstrauser 4 days ago
They were wrong then, of course, and they're still wrong now.
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Comment by tredre3 4 days ago
Because I can ping almost any public server on the internet and they will reply. I can ping your website just fine and it replies to me!
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
But for example, our firewall at work responds to ICMP but all of the endpoints which aren't meant for public use do not. That is less because ICMP is a problem and more because everything works fine without it and least privilege is good design.
ICMP is also more than just ping, and some parts of ICMP are considered a vulnerability if exposed to the public internet by some scanning services.
Comment by AtNightWeCode 3 days ago
Comment by kstrauser 4 days ago
I could be convinced to block inbound pings. Anything past that and I'd want solid evidence that it wouldn't break anything, with the expectation that it would.
Comment by tolciho 4 days ago
Comment by quantummagic 4 days ago
Comment by vman81 4 days ago
Comment by altairprime 4 days ago
In the snooping-mandatory scenario, either you have a mandatory outbound PAC with SSL-terminating proxy that either refuses CONNECT traffic or only allows that which it can root CA mitm, or you have a self-signed root CA mitm’ing all encrypted connections it recognizes. The former will continue functioning just fine with no issues at providing that; the latter will likely already be having issues with certificate-pinned apps and operating system components, not to mention likely being completely unaware of 80/udp, and should be scheduled for replacement by a solution that’s actually effective during your next capital budgeting interval.
Comment by kccqzy 4 days ago
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Comment by ekr____ 4 days ago
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Comment by miladyincontrol 4 days ago
Comment by hypeatei 4 days ago
Eventually these blocks won't be viable when big sites only support ECH. It's a stopgap solution that's delaying the inevitable death of SNI filtering.
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Big sites care about money more than your privacy, and forcing ECH is bad business.
And sure, kill SNI filtering, most places that block ECH will be happy to require DPI instead, while you're busy shooting yourself in the foot. I don't want to see all of the data you transmit to every web provider over my networks, but if you remove SNI, I really don't have another option.
Comment by hypeatei 4 days ago
> require DPI
Enterprises own the device that I'm connected to the network with, I don't see how you can get any more invasive than that.
> countries with laws
1) what countries do national-level SNI filtering, and 2) why are you using a hyptothetical authoritarian, privacy invading state actor as a good reason to keep plaintext SNI?
> Big sites care about money
Yes, and you could say that overbearing, antiquated network operators stop them from making more money with things like SNI filtering.
Comment by kelnos 4 days ago
Then don't look. I'm serious. This idea that corporations need to snoop on everything their employees do is disgusting.
Comment by ocdtrekkie 4 days ago
Comment by georgthegreat 4 days ago
According to this one should not be using v3 at all..
Comment by danudey 4 days ago
For those not familiar: until OpenSSL 3.4.1, if you wanted use OpenSSL and wanted to implement HTTP/3, which uses QUIC as the underlying protocol, you had to use their entire QUIC stack; you couldn't have a QUIC implementation and only use OpenSSL for the encryption parts.
QUIC, for those not familiar, is basically "what if we re-implemented TCP's functionality on top of UDP, but we could throw out all the old legacy crap". Complicated but interesting, except that if OpenSSL's implementation didn't do what you want or didn't do it well, you either had to put up with it or go use some other SSL library somewhere else. That meant that if you were using e.g. curl built against OpenSSL then curl also inherently had to use OpenSSL's QUIC implementation even if there were better ones available.
Daniel Stenberg from Curl wrote a great blog post about how bad and dumb that was if anyone is interested. https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2026/01/17/more-http-3-focus-one...
Comment by caycep 4 days ago
Comment by tptacek 4 days ago
The software quality side of OpenSSL paradoxically probably regressed since Heartbleed: there's a rough consensus that the design of OpenSSL 3.0 was a major step backwards, not least for performance, and more than one large project (but most notably pyca/cryptography) is actively considering moving away from OpenSSL entirely as a result. Again: while security concerns might be an ancillary issue in those potential migrations, the core issue is just that OpenSSL sucks to work with now.
Comment by ignoramous 4 days ago
NodeJS working group don't seem happy working with OpenSSL, either. There's been indication Node may move off of it (though, I remain sceptical):
I'd actually like us to consider the possibility of switching entirely to BoringSSL and away from OpenSSL. While BoringSSL does not carry the same Long Term Support guarantees that OpenSSL does, and has a much more constrained set of algorithms/options -- meaning it would absolutely be a breaking change -- the model they follow echoes that approach that v8 takes and we've been able to deal with that just fine.
Update on QUIC, https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/57281 (2025).Comment by ImJasonH 4 days ago
:)
Comment by dadrian 4 days ago
Comment by kccqzy 4 days ago
The HAProxy people wrote a very good blog post on the state of SSL stacks: https://www.haproxy.com/blog/state-of-ssl-stacks And the Python cryptography people wrote an even more damning indictment: https://cryptography.io/en/latest/statements/state-of-openss...
Here are some juicy quotes:
> With OpenSSL 3.0, an important goal was apparently to make the library much more dynamic, with a lot of previously constant elements (e.g., algorithm identifiers, etc.) becoming dynamic and having to be looked up in a list instead of being fixed at compile-time. Since the new design allows anyone to update that list at runtime, locks were placed everywhere when accessing the list to ensure consistency.
> After everything imaginable was done, the performance of OpenSSL 3.x remains highly inferior to that of OpenSSL 1.1.1. The ratio is hard to predict, as it depends heavily on the workload, but losses from 10% to 99% were reported.
> OpenSSL 3 started the process of substantially changing its APIs — it introduced OSSL_PARAM and has been using those for all new API surfaces (including those for post-quantum cryptographic algorithms). In short, OSSL_PARAM works by passing arrays of key-value pairs to functions, instead of normal argument passing. This reduces performance, reduces compile-time verification, increases verbosity, and makes code less readable.
Comment by awongh 4 days ago
> The OpenSSL project does not sufficiently prioritize testing. [... ]the project was [...] reliant on the community to report regressions experienced during the extended alpha and beta period [...], because their own tests were insufficient to catch unintended real-world breakages. Despite the known gaps in OpenSSL’s test coverage, it’s still common for bug fixes to land without an accompanying regression test.
I don't know anything about these libraries, but this makes their process sound pretty bad.
Comment by kccqzy 4 days ago
> OpenSSL’s CI is exceptionally flaky, and the OpenSSL project has grown to tolerate this flakiness, which masks serious bugs. OpenSSL 3.0.4 contained a critical buffer overflow in the RSA implementation on AVX-512-capable CPUs. This bug was actually caught by CI — but because the crash only occurred when the CI runner happened to have an AVX-512 CPU (not all did), the failures were apparently dismissed as flakiness.
Comment by wavemode 4 days ago
It's likely that over the long-term the tech industry will replace it with something else, but for now there's too much infrastructure relying on it.
Comment by gavinray 4 days ago
> In short, OSSL_PARAM works by passing arrays of key-value pairs to functions, instead of normal argument passing.
Ah yes, the ole' " fn(args: Map<String, Any>)" approach. Highly auditable, and Very Safe.Comment by wahern 4 days ago
Though, while the binary certification issue nominally remains, there's much more wiggle room today when it comes to compliance and auditing. You can typically maintain compliance when using modules built from updated sources of a previously certified module, and which are in the pipeline for re-certification. So the ABI dilemma is arguably less onerous today than it was when the OSSL_PARAM architecture took shape. Today, like with Go, you can lean on process, i.e. constant cycling of the implementation through the certification pipeline, more than technical solutions. The real unforced error was committing to OSSL_PARAMs for the public application APIs, letting the backend design choices (flexibility, etc) bleed through to the frontend. The temptation is understandable, but the ergonomics are horrible. I think performance problems are less a consequence of OSSL_PARAMS, per se, but about the architecture of state management between the library and module contexts.
Comment by PunchyHamster 4 days ago
I really wish Linux Foundation or some other big OSS founded complete replacement of it, then just write a shim that translates ABI calls from this to openssl 1.1 lookalike
Comment by parliament32 3 days ago
Comment by nulltrace 4 days ago
Comment by wahern 4 days ago
Comment by omcnoe 4 days ago
Why can't we let the FIPS people play in their own weird corner, while not compromising whole internet security for their sake? OpenSSL is too important to get distracted by a weird US-specific security standard. I'm not convinced FIPS is a path to actual computer security. Ah well it's the way the world goes I suppose.
Comment by selfmodruntime 4 days ago
Comment by thayne 4 days ago
AWS-LC is ok, but afaict there aren't really any pre-built binaries available, and you need to compile it yourself, and is a little difficult to use if you aren't using c/c++ or rust. (The same is largely true of boringssl).
[1]: https://github.com/google/boringssl?tab=readme-ov-file#borin...
Comment by semiquaver 4 days ago
Comment by rwmj 4 days ago
Comment by ge96 4 days ago
Comment by ibrahimhossain 4 days ago
Comment by yjftsjthsd-h 4 days ago
On the one hand, looks like decent cleanup. (IIRC, engines in particular will not be missed).
On the other hand, breaking compatibility is always a tradeoff, and I still remember 3.x being... not universally loved.
Comment by cookiengineer 4 days ago
> OPENSSL_cleanup() now runs in a global destructor, or not at all by default.
Oh oh. Heartbleed 2.0 incoming.
I really do hope that they broke APIs specifically throwing errors or race conditions so that devs are forced to cleanup. Otherwise this is going to be a nightmare to find out in terms of maintenance and audits.
I mean it's a new major release so it's a valid design change. But I hope they're thinking of providing and migration/update guide or a checklist to reduce usage errata.
(I'm heavily in favor of deprecating the fixed version method names)
Comment by jmclnx 4 days ago
From what I remember hearing, the move from 2 to 3 was hard.
Comment by georgthegreat 4 days ago
Comment by some_furry 4 days ago
But, thousand yard stare it was the version for the FIPS patches to 1.0.2.
Comment by bensyverson 4 days ago
Comment by altairprime 4 days ago
Comment by bensyverson 4 days ago
Comment by altairprime 4 days ago
Er. Your first acronym is pg not pq. (I had to font test above to be sure!) But point taken! You might care then, I saw various elliptic changes and I assume it’s got pq advancements somewhere in it.
Comment by semiquaver 4 days ago
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