There's only one Woz, but we can all learn from him
Posted by coloneltcb 5 days ago
Comments
Comment by Peroni 11 hours ago
Devastatingly he fell ill just before his trip and had to withdraw. Fortunately we hadn't announced anything however I still mourn over the missed opportunity to be able to introduce this living legend to our audience!
Comment by randycupertino 8 hours ago
My other airline celebrity encounter was Pauly Shore, who I was standing next to at the baggage carosel and thought to myself, "huh this guy sounds just like Pauly Shore" and lo - it was the man (and his entourage) himself. I always thought the voice was an affectation but nope he actually does talk like that. Woz was definitely more exciting to encouter!
Comment by calmbonsai 5 hours ago
They say "don't meet your heroes", but he was exactly as gracious, humble, funny, and knowledgeable as you would expect.
This was just after the first "Embedded Java" specs came out and we all had grand fun recognizing the over-engineering and dead-on-arrival of that architecture.
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Comment by postalcoder 13 hours ago
https://www.amazon.com/Founders-Work-Stories-Startups-Early/...
Comment by chairmansteve 9 hours ago
HN is a very strong net positive IMO. YC could easily monetize it into oblivion. They don't.
Comment by bigDinosaur 2 hours ago
I guess that's not conventional monetisation.
Comment by flomo 13 hours ago
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Comment by postalcoder 11 hours ago
Hacker news is designed for and targeted at hackers. In the sense of the word that means people who write code, not people who break into things. Other people with similar tastes also like it.
Since it's run by YC and the initial users were mostly YC founders, there is inevitably a startup spin to the stories that are popular here. In fact the site was originally called Startup News. But it turned out to be boring to have so much of a startup focus, so we changed the name and the focus to be more general.
- pg (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648199)Also: https://web.archive.org/web/20070624055731/http://www.founde...
Comment by paulcole 11 hours ago
Comment by postalcoder 11 hours ago
Woz has always carried a near perfect approval rate in our community. I've never seen anyone come close.
Comment by paulcole 11 hours ago
Comment by postalcoder 10 hours ago
I realize that’s a normative claim. Like the blind men and the elephant, we’re each touching a different part.
Comment by paulcole 10 hours ago
And your argument is based on the fact that you’d like this to be true as well as the fact that the vc company behind this site said, “Trust us bro!”
How is that different from the cow saying, “The farmer told us we’re walking through a fun maze!”
Comment by postalcoder 10 hours ago
Comment by alwa 6 hours ago
Marketing budgets can fund stuff whose authenticity is independent of who’s writing the check, right? Especially when their audience is extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity. Xerox can be an evil megacorp and also be sugar daddy to the PARC.
If the fun maze is taking YC’s money and using it to start a company, sure, I see your point. I’d say (right here on YC’s digital estate!) probably don’t do that.
If the fun maze is the community that’s emerged on this site, which is indeed something the VC firm sponsors (surprisingly cheaply)…
Then in my case, it’s different because I frequently walk through the fun maze for as long as the maze is fun, then I wander back out to my fields. If the maze stopped being fun, or started requiring me to set aside my values, I would stop coming, and the farmer knows that.
The farmer doesn’t prod me, much less sneak up on me with a captive bolt. He doesn’t try to milk me while I’m walking through his maze. If I’m ever considering selling my steak, I’ll probably apply commercial reasoning to my choice of abattoir, regardless of how fun the maze was.
I contribute voluntarily, I enjoy the voluntary contributions of others. It’s a maze where people want to come.
I’d like this to be true, so I contribute to it being true, and I observe others contributing to sustaining its truth too. Intersubjective belief creates reality!
Comment by paulcole 5 hours ago
I think “follow the money” is the cliche that applies here.
> Especially when their audience is extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity.
I think you mean that the audience likes to think of itself as extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity?
The audience will talk until they’re blue in the face about why this marketing project (HN) is so much different from and so much more authentic than other marketing projects.
The marketing seems to be working on this supposedly contrarian and sensitive to authentiity audience!
Comment by DonHopkins 3 hours ago
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Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago
My god jolly, I feel like Ken's the person you might be referring to.
Wozniak is great as well. Perhaps we (or people?) might affiliate him more with Hackernews given he was co-founder of a company which many founders within HN might want to achieve (or replicate?)
But the other way I view HN is a place of curiosity, a place of tinkering. I saw the interview of Ken Thompson and I don't know about you guys, but Ken Thompson talked in his interview about how when he was in between houses at a hotel when he was in high school, and there were girls who he used to wave at so he was half-way through to making essentially a pixelated device through which he could write letters (from what I remember from his interview)
I personally have done something similar although from a software side and not with a hardware side. But I feel like after 70 years, the transition from hardware to software is one which is understandable :)
I mean... Ken's 80 year old and really sharp. I only saw him thinking about things literally 70 year old just once almost like loading things into his mind at the start of interview and he was effortless afterwards talking about it.
I don't know enough about wozniak to qualify him for this
But what I can say was that today I was watching the Ken Thompson interview and literally after 15-30 minutes of the 4 hour interview. I was like, this belongs on hackernews and submitted it here. (Not sure if this counts as promotion but seriously everyone just watch this interview of Ken Thompson!)
Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309siTvApbY
Hackernews discussion I submitted (Currently zero response after 8 hours tho) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46793919] Kenneth Lane Thompson, 1983 ACM Turing Award Recipient (Video Interview)
SO I don't know if there's a particular reason why my HN submission about got literally 0 response after 8 hours or if because of it, Ken Thompson wouldn't qualify for it. But I am gonna be honest and say that in my mind, Ken Thompson's the legend which really embodies the HN spirit. Not sure if other parts of HN community also feel so but I still feel that they do even though there was no response on the HN post (could just be the timing at what I posted and many other things) but yea.
I highly recommend everyone to go watch the interview if you have 4-5 hours of free time right now.
Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago
I can certainly see why he would be the "model employee" of the new tech elite/political class, though, and what they desperately want all of us to be! Sit down, shut up, and get back to work!
Comment by mghackerlady 9 hours ago
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Comment by NetMageSCW 7 hours ago
Computer science and computing was taught and done at universities long before Stallman and GNU came along. I was using C++ Release E at college before GNU started, provided by Bell Labs at no cost.
Comment by PaulDavisThe1st 5 hours ago
Most of that stuff was made available to universities and colleges as institutions, but not to individual students. Once you graduate, you have no effective (or legal) access to it anymore ...
Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago
Comment by f1shy 6 hours ago
>> remained in the domain of universities and industry
> I was using C++ Release E at college before GNU started, provided by Bell Labs at no cost.
Was the source available, and possible to modify it?
Comment by DonHopkins 3 hours ago
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Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago
I wanted to comment on this. Please correct me if I am wrong as I used LLM sources to find
So from what I can find (from human searches) was that https://commandlinux.com/statistics/linux-web-server-market-... Linux is indeed ~55%
But the other thing is that some servers (from Chatgpt, I am not gonna lie) it says that there's an Unknown/CDN servers around 20 or more% (I feel like its more) to then reach the ~88% data estimate in some sense.
So can someone please clarify me on this if this is the true case or not?
Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago
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Comment by Aloha 15 hours ago
Jobs was a brilliant product manager and marketeer - every bit as brilliant as Woz is an engineer.
The truth is, the sharpest engineers struggle to make a marketable consumer product - because they make it for themselves, and while thats quite laudable, however it's generally a tiny market compared to one targeted at normal people.
Comment by p00dles 13 hours ago
The mythologizing of Jobs is the canonical example of people condoning terrible behavior because they think that a person is smart/valuable/talented/etc.
To me this is completely backwards and sets a terrible precedent - that you can act however you want if you get results - especially given how many people idolize and look up to Jobs.
Comment by hyperhello 12 hours ago
Comment by hobs 11 hours ago
Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago
Oft repeated, and not untrue, but very incomplete.
Jobs also made a lot of people. A lot of fortunes in SilVal only exist because of Steve Jobs.
He also virtually single handedly and without much fanfare at the time or credit in the history books created the employee compensation model that came to define SilVal success, with workaday employees and especially engineering contributors receiving stock options to reward them and keep them invested in the company's success.
Comment by apparent 3 hours ago
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Comment by microtherion 8 hours ago
Meanwhile, Woz has been involved in all sorts of products, including a cryptocurrency, and I can't think of a single one that got significant traction.
Comment by simonh 8 hours ago
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Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago
He made up with Lisa - to the extent one can after all that - in the end. And he raised three other kids, after becoming older and wiser as a dad.
Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago
> He made up with Lisa - to the extent one can after all that - in the end. And he raised three other kids, after becoming older and wiser as a dad.
So about this, I remember watching pirates of silicon valley when I was in 6th grade and this is something which troubles me from watching it (multiple times as it was the only offline movie I had so much so that I once gave a mini speech in class about steve jobs haha & one of my teachesrs started calling me steve jobs haha!)
But in the movie, I really didn't understand the rationale behind what he did to lisa. I mean iirc he did try to connect with her later but still, I just don't understand why he acted so harshly towards his mother when everything could've been going fine.
Like there were definitely plenty of moments in the movie where steve jobs wasn't the right guy. I really can't find the rationale behind some of the things.
I feel like I still don't know what to make of the whole situation regarding Steve jobs. but when you mentioned this comment, while reading it I imagined the point where Steve jobs offered Lisa a flower.
I remember this because many years after watching the movies, this youtube video came to my feed (I searched it again by just searching some PoSV related thing with lisa flower to find it)
What is the name of this music? (Motion Picture Score): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7btLayRZ4]
And even the director of the movie commented in the comments of this video which was pinned!
As well as using a lot of 70's & 80's classic rock and roll classics appropriate to the era when Jobs and Woz were starting Apple, we also went for "sound-alikes" (for the Ella Fitzgerald number) and created some of our own music. This piece is one of those creations. There is no name for it that I'm aware of. Martyn Burke Director-Pirates of Silicon Valley
Comment by lynx97 13 hours ago
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Comment by fuzzfactor 9 hours ago
Money would be made by each person regardless but this combination not only got more units to fly off the shelf, it got the company off to a more above-average likelihood of future products doing well with growth from there.
The longer that structure can be maintained, the better.
Most of the time a miraculous salesman or marketing strategist has an average to below-average product to represent, and they will still do very well.
So well in fact, that they themselves may never find out what the full upside would be if they had a product that actually was above-average enough for it to be able to sell on its own one way or another. And then act as a multiplier to that.
Through the roof can be hard to avoid then.
Same business plan I had as a preteen, way before Apple got going.
Comment by al_borland 9 hours ago
Jobs went on to start NeXT (which became modern Apple) and turned Pixar into a the studio that released Toy Story.
Jobs wasn’t just a salesman, he was a serial entrepreneur. His footnotes would be most people’s whole career. His talent wasn’t just sales, but also building teams of talented people and selling them on his vision.
Comment by caycep 2 hours ago
Comment by fuzzfactor 6 hours ago
And so was Woz.
What actually hapened couldn't have happened any other way.
>It seems Woz would have just kept working as an HP engineer and bringing designs to the homebrew computer club to give them away as a hobby.
If so it could only continue for so long before a lesser entrepreneur took the position that Jobs undertook.
And Apple might only be about half the size it is now.
Is that so bad?
Comment by nekooooo 15 hours ago
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Comment by rainbowcash 8 hours ago
Woz was perfect for those in the home brew club and Steve (basically vagabond) had a different perspective on users. It was the perfect combo in hindsight.
Comment by bko 12 hours ago
https://medium.com/packt-hub/how-to-be-like-steve-ballmer-cf...
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Comment by tofuahdude 7 hours ago
One night, dad was on duty, probably smoking pot with his student residents.
The phones all stop working.
So dad goes down to the maintenance closet, opens it up... and sure enough, there's Woz digging around the building's phone wiring. Woz immediately says "I'll fix it, I'll fix it!!".
He was down there installing one of those phreaking devices for free long-distance phone calls for everyone in the dorms.
My dad let him do his thing.
Comment by doanbactam 15 hours ago
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Comment by high_na_euv 14 hours ago
People wouldnt use electron is they had good alternative
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Comment by quietbritishjim 13 hours ago
But the general lack of really cross-platform (desktop + mobile + maybe web) ecosystems is just as much as sign that devs consider multi-gigabyte Electron apps "good enough" as the apps themselves.
Comment by pixl97 9 hours ago
This kind of misses out on a hierarchy of devs here and the amount of work to make it happen. Electron took a large chunk from a multi-billion dollar endeavor to use to make all this work. Electron only worked because Chrome was there. Chrome worked because Google already had unlimited money from advertising, and getting advertising on every device possible was their goal.
Devs might want light apps everywhere, but seemingly none are going to dedicate the rest of their life and money to make it work.
Comment by quietbritishjim 8 hours ago
My point was, if enough people really considered this a big deal then at least one huge tech company might have invested in a solution that provides a lighter weight solution that's truely multiplatform (desktop and mobile).
I don't have much visibility on how decisions are made to maintain massive open-source infrastructure projects, and no doubt there are significant business case inputs to them, but they must be at least partially technical. So, as I see it, the lack of such things give insight that even developers don't prioritise them.
As I mentioned, Flutter is almost there and maybe its lack of uptake on desktop is just enough to show that there really isn't demand (though I expect the main reason is its use of the Dart programming language, which is very nice but quite niche).
Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago
Having sat in many a meeting, partially yes, but these things are massively expensive. There is an equation, How much would it cost us to write a replacement that covers what we need versus how much does it cost us to use what exists that isn't efficient.
And this is where you miss the biggest part of the problem. It's the end users that bear the biggest part of the costs. Yes, there is an internal cost for their own developers, but that is comparatively small to the costs of their paychecks.
The next comes to management of the lightweight solution over time. If it's owned by a company at the end of the day companies are rarely interested in lightweight, they are interested in making the most money and quite often that means adding more and more features to accomplish lock-in.
Open source is more likely to keep a project remaining light, but to do that it's quite often by not accepting bulky features that would make companies more money. So you see where the catch-22 situation starts to arise from.
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Comment by aix1 14 hours ago
Maybe I am living in the past, but it does make me think that they might be depriving themselves of an opportunity to develop key skills.
Comment by pixl97 9 hours ago
You are living in a past, but one much farther back than you expect.
People were copying code from SO since it became popular.
People are including node modules blindly before AI.
Most developers suck, terribly. Maybe being on HN is a type of filter that shows you're just a little bit better than the average, but the number of developers on HN is small versus the total number of developers.
Edit: I was copying code out of magazines to get games running without understanding anything about it when I was young.
Comment by aix1 8 hours ago
Secondly, I am not talking about some abstract SWEs in a vacuum. This is happening to real people I work with, whom I know to be very capable. The lure of switching off the brain and just clicking "Accept" to some LLM suggestion seems too strong to resist. :(
Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago
> if I take QR decomposition code from Numerical Recipes,
I'm going to assume the vast majority of code written does not look anything like this, but is dumb little chunks of glue for other important chunks, that are quite often imported from other libraries.
As someone that is not a SWE looking from the outside, I think there is a disconnect between what a SWE is told they are getting paid for and what a SWE is actually getting paid for by (many/most) businesses.
You are under the assumption you are getting paid for writing code. But for the vast majority of business that is just the icky bits getting ground up in the sausage factory that nobody wants to know about. Management above you only cares about what gets wrapped in casings and is ready to sell to the customer (either internal or external). They do not care if the product is technically good as long as they can sell it. For each individual person in the company becoming a better programmer is hard to measure and rarely rewarded by the company they work for. Turning out tons of lines of code and applications that have at least some semblance of working is far more likely to get you a pay raise.
Comment by aix1 7 hours ago
You're talking in the aggregate and making some good points.
I am talking about what concretely I am seeing on the ground. It's become a little too easy to churn out junk that looks plausible enough to pass the initial sniff test but that ultimately results in negative productivity. Someone has to go back and not only redo the initial work but also deal with all the knock-on effects. It's unclear to me that these effects are offset by productivity gains elsewhere. This can also result in highly problematic incentive structures: the initial launch ticks some box, whoever did it gets rewarded and then someone else is left to pick up the pieces. Higher overall cost to the orgnisation and worse experience for the customers than doing it well in the first place.
Not totally clear how to fix this other than by shifting towards longer-term incentive structures (which have their own drawbacks).
None of this is completely new, but has become 10X easier thanks to the current generation of tooling.
This is in addition to my concerns around what this is doing to our junior developers' skills.
Maybe the tooling will soon get good enough that nobody has to ever write any code except for enjoyment, but it's not clear to me that this is the trajectory we're on.
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Comment by ndr42 14 hours ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJexQjoMtk
(found on the blog of Cabel Sasser: https://cabel.com/woz-vs-wooz/)
Comment by OhMeadhbh 14 hours ago
So I would also say... the kinds of things we learn from Woz are concrete and we get immediate feedback if we learned them wrong.
Comment by Tor3 12 hours ago
It sounds like they complemented each other during the startup. And it was Jobs who suggested that they should try running a company.
Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago
With all humans the difficult part is getting all the needed traits to make a business/product work without getting ones like backstabbing/jealously that cause problems later.
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Comment by ChrisMarshallNY 11 hours ago
Sounds a bit like Jimmy Carter. His best and most influential work came after he left The Oval Office.
Comment by bazoom42 10 hours ago
Comment by ChrisMarshallNY 9 hours ago
I think his Habitat for Humanity work was pretty damn important.
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Comment by testfrequency 15 hours ago
Anyone who knows Apple knows who “Scott” is referring to. Scott Forstall.
Comment by LukeShu 15 hours ago
Comment by testfrequency 15 hours ago
EDIT: reading this again, now thinking you are right and they are just being snarky about the “one Woz in the world” existing.
Comment by iwisjwudjqjdw 8 hours ago
Comment by knorker 14 hours ago
"Woz" is googlable. His name doesn't need context. "Larry" could be Ellison or Page. "Scott" could be Forstall or Adams.
Who played Scott Forstall in the movie?
Anyway, other comments proven it's not just me, too.
Comment by wat10000 5 hours ago
Comment by testfrequency 5 hours ago
Possibly my assumption was incorrectly based more on people who actually worked at Apple vs what the normal public thinks of when they hear “Scott” and “Woz” in the context of Apple.
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Comment by vasco 15 hours ago
For "Scott Apple" search string, Google agrees with me and the forstall guy is just a secondary mention.
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Comment by andrewstuart 11 hours ago
Woz invented the consumer personal computer.
That is one of the greatest inventions in human history, perhaps the greatest.
Comment by BirAdam 9 hours ago
Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago
Definitely had a hand in it. If you want to dime out the singular technical innovation that Woz contributed that really changed everything, IMO it was figuring out how to make the Apple II do color on the cheap. That was the real competitive differentiator at the time that made personal computers attractive to consumers, and cheap enough to contemplate for folks without a garage full of electronics equipment.
Comment by alnwlsn 7 hours ago
“It was the first time in history anyone had typed a character on a keyboard and seen it show up on their own computer’s screen right in front of them.”
seems pretty believable, especially if you don't know the names Don Lancaster or Jonathan Titus. Woz might not have at the time, and indeed Lancaster was not first either.
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