There's only one Woz, but we can all learn from him

Posted by coloneltcb 5 days ago

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Comments

Comment by Peroni 11 hours ago

I once approached Woz about potentially speaking at Hacker News London, fully expecting my email to be completely ignored. A few days later, he actually responded enthusiastically and mentioned an upcoming trip to the UK. He loved the grassroots nature of the meetup and was really up for giving a talk (for free!) to the community. I then had multiple delightful interactions with his wife who managed his logistics.

Devastatingly he fell ill just before his trip and had to withdraw. Fortunately we hadn't announced anything however I still mourn over the missed opportunity to be able to introduce this living legend to our audience!

Comment by randycupertino 8 hours ago

I sat next to him in business class on a flight back from Poland to the SF a few years ago and he was so gracious, talking with and taking photos with all his seatmates. I just wanted to sleep because I was coming back from a conference and I was actually annoyed with all the "fanfare" around him which was loud and kept everyone up! It must have been hard for him to constantly deal with. He was super nice though and made time for everyone who wanted to chat with him.

My other airline celebrity encounter was Pauly Shore, who I was standing next to at the baggage carosel and thought to myself, "huh this guy sounds just like Pauly Shore" and lo - it was the man (and his entourage) himself. I always thought the voice was an affectation but nope he actually does talk like that. Woz was definitely more exciting to encouter!

Comment by calmbonsai 5 hours ago

I once had sushi (at a group table) with the man at a JavaOne.

They say "don't meet your heroes", but he was exactly as gracious, humble, funny, and knowledgeable as you would expect.

This was just after the first "Embedded Java" specs came out and we all had grand fun recognizing the over-engineering and dead-on-arrival of that architecture.

Comment by simonh 9 hours ago

I didn't know there is a HN meetup in LDN. How do I join up?

Comment by Peroni 9 hours ago

Unfortunately we shut it down when COVID hit. I think there's a smaller, less formal HN meetup still happening occasionally but I'm not affiliated with it.

Comment by bigstrat2003 16 hours ago

Woz is by far the person in computing history for whom I have the most respect. Dude is an absolute legend, and from everything I have heard is humble and kind on top of his crazy skills. If I could get to the point where I had even 10% of his skill and generosity of spirit, I would consider myself to have done pretty well.

Comment by postalcoder 14 hours ago

I can't think of a single person who embodies the spirit of this site more than Woz. dang could replace the guidelines with a picture of Woz and we'd all know what it meant.

Comment by omnimus 14 hours ago

Let's not forget url of this site is Ycombinator. As far as i know that is very far from “friendly selfless genius inventor engineer”. It's more like “ambitious finance move fast and break things programmer”.

Comment by SkyMarshal 14 hours ago

To be fair, Woz wasn't just a “friendly selfless genius inventor engineer”, he was also the co-founder of one of the most valuable tech companies in the world. And YC is, in their own words: "The Y combinator is one of the coolest ideas in computer science. It's also a metaphor for what we do. It's a program that runs programs; we're a company that helps start companies.". They're not entirely unrelated.

Comment by al_borland 9 hours ago

He was a cofounder because of his skill and Jobs talking him into it. Woz would have been perfectly happy as an engineer at HP, that was his plan.

Comment by leoc 6 hours ago

He wasn't entirely unworldly though. He didn't like BASIC as a language, but he gave the Apple I and II a BASIC capable of running the programs from Ahl's BASIC Computer Games because that's what the market was demanding.

Comment by postalcoder 13 hours ago

Woz is a primary figure in one of YC’s essential texts. He has always been revered here as a founder and as a human.

https://www.amazon.com/Founders-Work-Stories-Startups-Early/...

Comment by chairmansteve 9 hours ago

You are right. But the real world is a messy place. Good people do bad things and vice versa. Not many people are entirely good or entirely bad.

HN is a very strong net positive IMO. YC could easily monetize it into oblivion. They don't.

Comment by bigDinosaur 2 hours ago

My understanding is that HN is monetized e.g. marketing is explicitly permitted by founders etc.

I guess that's not conventional monetisation.

Comment by flomo 13 hours ago

"Tech Cofounder" who gets edged out before the next funding round.

Comment by keeganpoppen 6 hours ago

i guess you mean ycombinator and not ycombinator… the combinator, which is very much the kind of hacker ethos this site (and pg’s idealized version of the entity) is supposed to embody.

Comment by ABCLAW 4 hours ago

I feel like this was more accurate a long time ago when the first rounds of YCombinator hopefuls were all piling in here and nerding out. The vibe, tone, and content has dramatically shifted towards the finance and ambition side of tech over the years.

Comment by direwolf20 12 hours ago

Woz may embody the spirit of hacking but does he really embody the spirit of venture capital?

Comment by postalcoder 11 hours ago

Since when was HN about venture capital?

  Hacker news is designed for and targeted at hackers. In the sense of the word that means people who write code, not people who break into things. Other people with similar tastes also like it.

  Since it's run by YC and the initial users were mostly YC founders, there is inevitably a startup spin to the stories that are popular here. In fact the site was originally called Startup News. But it turned out to be boring to have so much of a startup focus, so we changed the name and the focus to be more general.
- pg (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648199)

Also: https://web.archive.org/web/20070624055731/http://www.founde...

Comment by paulcole 11 hours ago

Do you believe all marketing and advertising copy that you read?

Comment by postalcoder 11 hours ago

Look at the questions I'm replying to. They, in one way or another, asked me to draw a line between Woz and Ycombinator. That's what I did.

Woz has always carried a near perfect approval rate in our community. I've never seen anyone come close.

Comment by paulcole 11 hours ago

Sorry, I was replying to the person who said, “Since when was HN about venture capital?” The answer to that is obviously since its inception. It’s like watching those weird flying contraption contests and asking, “Since when is Red Bull about energy drinks?”

Comment by 10 hours ago

Comment by postalcoder 10 hours ago

Oh wait that was me. I mean, yes you're right that vc and startups are inextricable. But I’d argue their underlying spirit isn’t the same.

I realize that’s a normative claim. Like the blind men and the elephant, we’re each touching a different part.

Comment by paulcole 10 hours ago

> But I’d argue their underlying spirit isn’t the same.

And your argument is based on the fact that you’d like this to be true as well as the fact that the vc company behind this site said, “Trust us bro!”

How is that different from the cow saying, “The farmer told us we’re walking through a fun maze!”

Comment by postalcoder 10 hours ago

I may have overthought this and wandered into territory I don’t actually have strong convictions about. My original impulse was simply to show some love for Woz.

Comment by alwa 6 hours ago

I mean

Marketing budgets can fund stuff whose authenticity is independent of who’s writing the check, right? Especially when their audience is extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity. Xerox can be an evil megacorp and also be sugar daddy to the PARC.

If the fun maze is taking YC’s money and using it to start a company, sure, I see your point. I’d say (right here on YC’s digital estate!) probably don’t do that.

If the fun maze is the community that’s emerged on this site, which is indeed something the VC firm sponsors (surprisingly cheaply)…

Then in my case, it’s different because I frequently walk through the fun maze for as long as the maze is fun, then I wander back out to my fields. If the maze stopped being fun, or started requiring me to set aside my values, I would stop coming, and the farmer knows that.

The farmer doesn’t prod me, much less sneak up on me with a captive bolt. He doesn’t try to milk me while I’m walking through his maze. If I’m ever considering selling my steak, I’ll probably apply commercial reasoning to my choice of abattoir, regardless of how fun the maze was.

I contribute voluntarily, I enjoy the voluntary contributions of others. It’s a maze where people want to come.

I’d like this to be true, so I contribute to it being true, and I observe others contributing to sustaining its truth too. Intersubjective belief creates reality!

Comment by paulcole 5 hours ago

> Marketing budgets can fund stuff whose authenticity is independent of who’s writing the check, right

I think “follow the money” is the cliche that applies here.

> Especially when their audience is extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity.

I think you mean that the audience likes to think of itself as extra-contrarian and sensitive to authenticity?

The audience will talk until they’re blue in the face about why this marketing project (HN) is so much different from and so much more authentic than other marketing projects.

The marketing seems to be working on this supposedly contrarian and sensitive to authentiity audience!

Comment by DonHopkins 3 hours ago

I believed all the marketing and advertising copy that made me want to buy an Apple ][.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL7urMIB0G0

Comment by aembleton 12 hours ago

Maybe Fabrice Bellard could be a candidate.

Comment by jdefr89 9 hours ago

Obviously familiar with Fabrice Bellard and his technical contributions but it seems like he is a pretty private person and he keeps to himself. I don't really know much about him as a person.

Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago

I just watched a Ken Thompson interview when he's 80 years old.

My god jolly, I feel like Ken's the person you might be referring to.

Wozniak is great as well. Perhaps we (or people?) might affiliate him more with Hackernews given he was co-founder of a company which many founders within HN might want to achieve (or replicate?)

But the other way I view HN is a place of curiosity, a place of tinkering. I saw the interview of Ken Thompson and I don't know about you guys, but Ken Thompson talked in his interview about how when he was in between houses at a hotel when he was in high school, and there were girls who he used to wave at so he was half-way through to making essentially a pixelated device through which he could write letters (from what I remember from his interview)

I personally have done something similar although from a software side and not with a hardware side. But I feel like after 70 years, the transition from hardware to software is one which is understandable :)

I mean... Ken's 80 year old and really sharp. I only saw him thinking about things literally 70 year old just once almost like loading things into his mind at the start of interview and he was effortless afterwards talking about it.

I don't know enough about wozniak to qualify him for this

But what I can say was that today I was watching the Ken Thompson interview and literally after 15-30 minutes of the 4 hour interview. I was like, this belongs on hackernews and submitted it here. (Not sure if this counts as promotion but seriously everyone just watch this interview of Ken Thompson!)

Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309siTvApbY

Hackernews discussion I submitted (Currently zero response after 8 hours tho) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46793919] Kenneth Lane Thompson, 1983 ACM Turing Award Recipient (Video Interview)

SO I don't know if there's a particular reason why my HN submission about got literally 0 response after 8 hours or if because of it, Ken Thompson wouldn't qualify for it. But I am gonna be honest and say that in my mind, Ken Thompson's the legend which really embodies the HN spirit. Not sure if other parts of HN community also feel so but I still feel that they do even though there was no response on the HN post (could just be the timing at what I posted and many other things) but yea.

I highly recommend everyone to go watch the interview if you have 4-5 hours of free time right now.

Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago

While I adore Woz - Apple fanboy from way back - it's a bit unusual for an aggregator and discussion site to "embody the spirit" of a guy who says that he hates business and politics, and doesn't like participating in discussions involving disagreement.

I can certainly see why he would be the "model employee" of the new tech elite/political class, though, and what they desperately want all of us to be! Sit down, shut up, and get back to work!

Comment by mghackerlady 9 hours ago

To me he's second only to stallman for me. Woz is an engineering genius, but stallman is pretty much the reason we're on this site right now in a way

Comment by checker659 8 hours ago

Care to explain?

Comment by volkercraig 8 hours ago

Without the gnu projects, software would have remained in the domain of universities and industry. Distributing it for free and encapsulating it with an actual legal license was radical in and of itself, but the notion of being required to distribute source was even more radical. Without that, people don't learn to code outside of industry, people don't share ideas and software remains in corporate silos with no/low interoptability unless a business decides to form a strategic partnership.

Comment by NetMageSCW 7 hours ago

> outside of industry, people don't share ideas and software remains in corporate silos with no/low interoptability unless a business decides to form a strategic partnership.

Computer science and computing was taught and done at universities long before Stallman and GNU came along. I was using C++ Release E at college before GNU started, provided by Bell Labs at no cost.

Comment by PaulDavisThe1st 5 hours ago

Provided to whom ?

Most of that stuff was made available to universities and colleges as institutions, but not to individual students. Once you graduate, you have no effective (or legal) access to it anymore ...

Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago

Sure it was free (as in beer) but was it free (as in speech?) Could you modify and improve the compiler? If you did, could you redistribute it? Knowing bell labs, the answer is a definite no to the last one

Comment by f1shy 6 hours ago

That said the previous post.

>> remained in the domain of universities and industry

> I was using C++ Release E at college before GNU started, provided by Bell Labs at no cost.

Was the source available, and possible to modify it?

Comment by DonHopkins 3 hours ago

Even after Sun got a C++ compiler for free for internal use (but not by their customers) by jumping into bed with AT&T, they still hired Michael Tiemann of Cygnus Support to port G++ to Solaris.

Comment by mghackerlady 8 hours ago

Without Stallman there wouldn't be GNU, so the operating system used to host this site and the majority of the web wouldn't exist. The compiler used to build that operating system wouldn't exist. The free software movement that later birthed its little cousin "open source" wouldn't exist, neither would the free culture movement to some extent. The ideals of the free software movement inspired the architects of the World Wide Web to make it a freely available technology, so without stallman the net would be vastly different, likely staying fragmented between different protocols like it used to be. Plus, the operating system you're using likely has some GNU stuff in it somewhere

Comment by NetMageSCW 7 hours ago

Most of that is incorrect and revisionist history. The Web was developed on a commercial system (the NExT from Steve Job’s company) and initial implementations were made on various commercial systems by differing groups. Even today, Linux is at most 50% of the web servers on the Internet.

Comment by davisr 6 hours ago

It's not revisionist. The entire NeXT codebase was literally compiled with GCC.

Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago

There's even a funny story in there about how NeXT almost bypassed the GPL until GNU got Lawyers involved since them using a loophole would be very bad for peoples freedom

Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago

Linux is at most 88 percent of servers, since windows is only estimated to be used on 11% of servers and the other unices aren't used outside of very specific circumstances

Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago

> Linux is at most 88 percent of servers, since windows is only estimated to be used on 11% of servers and the other unices aren't used outside of very specific circumstances

I wanted to comment on this. Please correct me if I am wrong as I used LLM sources to find

So from what I can find (from human searches) was that https://commandlinux.com/statistics/linux-web-server-market-... Linux is indeed ~55%

But the other thing is that some servers (from Chatgpt, I am not gonna lie) it says that there's an Unknown/CDN servers around 20 or more% (I feel like its more) to then reach the ~88% data estimate in some sense.

So can someone please clarify me on this if this is the true case or not?

Comment by mghackerlady 6 hours ago

It was developed on a proprietary system (free software can be commercial) and yes, various implementations were made on said proprietary systems, but there were always free ones like lynx (the oldest browser still in development). Plus, Tim Berners-Lee was likely inspired by the GNU and BSD projects when he made the protocol royalty free

Comment by TacoCommander 5 hours ago

You used to have to pay for UNIX just like you pay for Microsoft Windows

Comment by ares623 15 hours ago

Everyone chooses the wrong Steve to worship.

Comment by Aloha 15 hours ago

If you're an engineer, you should admire Woz, if you're a product manager or marketeer, Jobs.

Jobs was a brilliant product manager and marketeer - every bit as brilliant as Woz is an engineer.

The truth is, the sharpest engineers struggle to make a marketable consumer product - because they make it for themselves, and while thats quite laudable, however it's generally a tiny market compared to one targeted at normal people.

Comment by p00dles 13 hours ago

They were both brilliant, but from everything that I've read, Jobs was an ass****, and Woz was the opposite, and that is a huge, huge difference.

The mythologizing of Jobs is the canonical example of people condoning terrible behavior because they think that a person is smart/valuable/talented/etc.

To me this is completely backwards and sets a terrible precedent - that you can act however you want if you get results - especially given how many people idolize and look up to Jobs.

Comment by hyperhello 12 hours ago

Jobs dealt with people and respected the machines. Woz dealt with machines and respected the people.

Comment by hobs 11 hours ago

Jobs fucked over a lot of people and respected the machines. Woz dealt with the machines and respected the people.

Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago

>Jobs fucked over a lot of people

Oft repeated, and not untrue, but very incomplete.

Jobs also made a lot of people. A lot of fortunes in SilVal only exist because of Steve Jobs.

He also virtually single handedly and without much fanfare at the time or credit in the history books created the employee compensation model that came to define SilVal success, with workaday employees and especially engineering contributors receiving stock options to reward them and keep them invested in the company's success.

Comment by apparent 3 hours ago

I don't disagree with what you say, but I have literally never seen or heard "SilVal". Is this a common shorthand? I hear "the Valley" and see "SV" but never this halfcronym.

Comment by hobs 1 hour ago

Sure, but he was cruel for no reason to many people who did not deserve it, I don't even care about his tech problems. Nobody should park in the handicap stalls without a license plate because he keeps leasing new cars.

Comment by Miraste 4 hours ago

I do wonder if it's possible to be a brilliant marketer, and reach the levels Jobs did, without being an asshole. The core of the profession is learning how to manipulate and use people better than anyone else.

Comment by microtherion 13 hours ago

The other huge, huge difference is that one of the Steves has demonstrated he was able to build a successful product without the other's assistance.

Comment by fuzzfactor 9 hours ago

You could say that about the iPod or the iPhone which Woz wasn't involved in, but when you do the math, there's only one Woz and he was essential to define the company in the 20th century, and look how many people it took to "replace" him when it came to Jobs "alone" defining the company in the 21st century.

Comment by microtherion 8 hours ago

You could also say it about the Mac, which Woz was, at best, peripherally involved in. Not saying that Jobs created these products "alone" — he obviously did not. But he was a key contributor.

Meanwhile, Woz has been involved in all sorts of products, including a cryptocurrency, and I can't think of a single one that got significant traction.

Comment by simonh 8 hours ago

I'm not sure what to believe. I know he was incredibly demanding, and I've heard the stories, but he also inspired a lot of loyalty and commitment from plenty of very talented engineers who were not short of other options.

Comment by f1shy 6 hours ago

As a person he didn’t want to recognize the daughter, if I remember correctly.

Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago

Everybody makes mistakes, and this is definitely a huge one to have made, and a sad aspect of his legacy, but if this is all you know about Steve Jobs, you don't know anything about Steve Jobs.

He made up with Lisa - to the extent one can after all that - in the end. And he raised three other kids, after becoming older and wiser as a dad.

Comment by Imustaskforhelp 3 hours ago

> Everybody makes mistakes, and this is definitely a huge one to have made, and a sad aspect of his legacy, but if this is all you know about Steve Jobs, you don't know anything about Steve Jobs.

> He made up with Lisa - to the extent one can after all that - in the end. And he raised three other kids, after becoming older and wiser as a dad.

So about this, I remember watching pirates of silicon valley when I was in 6th grade and this is something which troubles me from watching it (multiple times as it was the only offline movie I had so much so that I once gave a mini speech in class about steve jobs haha & one of my teachesrs started calling me steve jobs haha!)

But in the movie, I really didn't understand the rationale behind what he did to lisa. I mean iirc he did try to connect with her later but still, I just don't understand why he acted so harshly towards his mother when everything could've been going fine.

Like there were definitely plenty of moments in the movie where steve jobs wasn't the right guy. I really can't find the rationale behind some of the things.

I feel like I still don't know what to make of the whole situation regarding Steve jobs. but when you mentioned this comment, while reading it I imagined the point where Steve jobs offered Lisa a flower.

I remember this because many years after watching the movies, this youtube video came to my feed (I searched it again by just searching some PoSV related thing with lisa flower to find it)

What is the name of this music? (Motion Picture Score): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7btLayRZ4]

And even the director of the movie commented in the comments of this video which was pinned!

As well as using a lot of 70's & 80's classic rock and roll classics appropriate to the era when Jobs and Woz were starting Apple, we also went for "sound-alikes" (for the Ella Fitzgerald number) and created some of our own music. This piece is one of those creations. There is no name for it that I'm aware of. Martyn Burke Director-Pirates of Silicon Valley

Comment by lynx97 13 hours ago

And still, when it comes to built-in accessibility, Jobs is pretty much famous for his "fuck ROI" statement. He set precedence around 2007, which eventually forced other players like Google and Microsoft to follow. These days, Talkback and Narrator are builtin for both OSes, which is mostly because Apple went there first. This move changed the lifes of a a few million people.

Comment by tbossanova 12 hours ago

You need both though. You have to accept there are a certain amount of psychopaths in the world, and learn how to manage them

Comment by BirAdam 9 hours ago

This. When Woz created the Apple I and Apple II, the entire microcomputer market consisted of hackers, tinkerers, enthusiasts, and hobbyists. Had Woz been acting alone, the Apple I and Apple II would have made a splash at Homebrew, but they wouldn't have been products. Jobs made them products. After VisiCalc, this market expanded to finance professionals, but it was still a tiny market. It was really Raskin and Jobs who proved the viability of the Xerox PARC (and SRI before them) advancements around the GUI that propelled computing to a more general audience. Then, MS caught up, dominated the market in the 1990s, and Apple came back only when Jobs returned and began pushing industrial design and OS X. From the point until quite recently, most companies R&D could have just been attending Apple product launches and imitating as best they could (that's hyperbolic, but not entirely incorrect).

Comment by keiferski 13 hours ago

I admire both and I find the push to Pick a Steve Team really irritating.

Comment by fragmede 13 hours ago

Both, the sum is greater than the parts. Neither of them would be there without the other.

Comment by fuzzfactor 9 hours ago

When you look at it squarely, Jobs could have sold any average product and made money, and Woz' product was so far above average it could have sold on its own (to a more limited extent), with each unit sold making money either way.

Money would be made by each person regardless but this combination not only got more units to fly off the shelf, it got the company off to a more above-average likelihood of future products doing well with growth from there.

The longer that structure can be maintained, the better.

Most of the time a miraculous salesman or marketing strategist has an average to below-average product to represent, and they will still do very well.

So well in fact, that they themselves may never find out what the full upside would be if they had a product that actually was above-average enough for it to be able to sell on its own one way or another. And then act as a multiplier to that.

Through the roof can be hard to avoid then.

Same business plan I had as a preteen, way before Apple got going.

Comment by al_borland 9 hours ago

Woz took the Apple 1 to HP to see if they wanted it, since he was working there at the time. They passed on it. It seems Woz would have just kept working as an HP engineer and bringing designs to the homebrew computer club to give them away as a hobby.

Jobs went on to start NeXT (which became modern Apple) and turned Pixar into a the studio that released Toy Story.

Jobs wasn’t just a salesman, he was a serial entrepreneur. His footnotes would be most people’s whole career. His talent wasn’t just sales, but also building teams of talented people and selling them on his vision.

Comment by caycep 2 hours ago

And it's not always a sure thing. NeXT would have failed without Apple 2.0.

Comment by fuzzfactor 6 hours ago

I fully agree, Jobs was like the ideal founder.

And so was Woz.

What actually hapened couldn't have happened any other way.

>It seems Woz would have just kept working as an HP engineer and bringing designs to the homebrew computer club to give them away as a hobby.

If so it could only continue for so long before a lesser entrepreneur took the position that Jobs undertook.

And Apple might only be about half the size it is now.

Is that so bad?

Comment by nekooooo 15 hours ago

true. woz made a $900 universal remote in 1987. it could control 256 devices via IR and was programmable via PC at a time when you probably had 1 device in your house (with 7 channels.) Maybe 2 if you had a tape player. He clearly made it for himself and his sick component system.

Comment by Findecanor 9 hours ago

I have chosen to go by "Take no heroes, only inspiration", and take different inspiration from both.

Comment by rainbowcash 8 hours ago

> The truth is, the sharpest engineers struggle to make a marketable consumer product - because they make it for themselves, and while thats quite laudable, however it's generally a tiny market compared to one targeted at normal people.

Woz was perfect for those in the home brew club and Steve (basically vagabond) had a different perspective on users. It was the perfect combo in hindsight.

Comment by bko 12 hours ago

Worshiping Woz is cool, but like the article says, there's only one Woz. And chances are you're nothing like Woz or Jobs. But Ballmer? That's someone I can look to emulate.

https://medium.com/packt-hub/how-to-be-like-steve-ballmer-cf...

Comment by varjag 12 hours ago

There were/are countless engineers which are very like Woz. Just that engineers are worse positioned to reap the rewards of commercial success so you rarely hear of them.

Comment by ares623 3 hours ago

People who worship Jobs helped make sure of that

Comment by ericmcer 6 hours ago

You could argue that Apple would exist without Wozniak, but it would definitely not without Jobs.

Comment by tehnub 13 hours ago

I worship both thank you very much.

Comment by pavlov 8 hours ago

Woz is great, but I'd still go for Alan Kay.

Comment by rainbowcash 8 hours ago

Great mention of Alan Kay - however I enjoy hearing from them both. Both have an infectious enthusiasm for teaching and making things so dang simple. I enjoy coming back to their talks and learning something new

Comment by appplication 13 hours ago

I was behind Woz in Heathrow security a few years back. I was taken aback he’d just be in the regular airport security line given he’s probably worth 1B+. I asked him if he was who I thought he was (he was wearing a face mask, but it was printed with a picture of his own face on it so I wasn’t sure). He said yes and asked if I wanted to take a selfie. Very humble dude.

Comment by rsanek 12 hours ago

I think his net worth is probably a couple of orders of magnitude lower https://swipefile.com/steve-wozniak-co-founder-of-apple-on-h...

Comment by dhosek 8 hours ago

Even 7 zeros is pretty much you can do what you want anytime you want. Ten million dollars sitting in a bank account earning 3% is 25k a month and nobody with those kinds of assets is leaving them in a bank account earning 3%.

Comment by tofuahdude 7 hours ago

My dad was Woz's RA in the Berkeley dorms. He often tells this story:

One night, dad was on duty, probably smoking pot with his student residents.

The phones all stop working.

So dad goes down to the maintenance closet, opens it up... and sure enough, there's Woz digging around the building's phone wiring. Woz immediately says "I'll fix it, I'll fix it!!".

He was down there installing one of those phreaking devices for free long-distance phone calls for everyone in the dorms.

My dad let him do his thing.

Comment by doanbactam 15 hours ago

It’s a stark contrast to today's mindset where we often just throw more resources at the problem. His obsession with elegance over features is something I try to keep in mind, even if it's harder in modern web dev. " Let's make it shorter and punchier. "Woz's floppy disk controller design is still the gold standard for doing in software what competitors needed a whole board of chips to do. That kind of obsession with elegance over brute force is exactly what's missing in modern engineering.

Comment by nekooooo 15 hours ago

modern engineering is launching an electron to-do list app that uses 2gb of ram.

Comment by high_na_euv 14 hours ago

Which, at least works relibly across all platforms and devices unlike desktop frameworks?

People wouldnt use electron is they had good alternative

Comment by bigstrat2003 7 hours ago

Literally anything is a good alternative to electron. One should prioritize the quality of the product, and use of electron gives the lowest quality product.

Comment by smt88 7 hours ago

VS Code is a fantastic Electron app

Comment by quietbritishjim 13 hours ago

Flutter / Dart? It's compiled ahead of time and doesn't use an embedded browser so I'd expect it to be a lot lighter, though I haven't measured.

But the general lack of really cross-platform (desktop + mobile + maybe web) ecosystems is just as much as sign that devs consider multi-gigabyte Electron apps "good enough" as the apps themselves.

Comment by pixl97 9 hours ago

>at devs consider multi-gigabyte Electron apps "good enough" as the apps themselves.

This kind of misses out on a hierarchy of devs here and the amount of work to make it happen. Electron took a large chunk from a multi-billion dollar endeavor to use to make all this work. Electron only worked because Chrome was there. Chrome worked because Google already had unlimited money from advertising, and getting advertising on every device possible was their goal.

Devs might want light apps everywhere, but seemingly none are going to dedicate the rest of their life and money to make it work.

Comment by quietbritishjim 8 hours ago

True, not every dev has the power of a multi-billion dollar company behind them. But a few do.

My point was, if enough people really considered this a big deal then at least one huge tech company might have invested in a solution that provides a lighter weight solution that's truely multiplatform (desktop and mobile).

I don't have much visibility on how decisions are made to maintain massive open-source infrastructure projects, and no doubt there are significant business case inputs to them, but they must be at least partially technical. So, as I see it, the lack of such things give insight that even developers don't prioritise them.

As I mentioned, Flutter is almost there and maybe its lack of uptake on desktop is just enough to show that there really isn't demand (though I expect the main reason is its use of the Dart programming language, which is very nice but quite niche).

Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago

>but they must be at least partially technical.

Having sat in many a meeting, partially yes, but these things are massively expensive. There is an equation, How much would it cost us to write a replacement that covers what we need versus how much does it cost us to use what exists that isn't efficient.

And this is where you miss the biggest part of the problem. It's the end users that bear the biggest part of the costs. Yes, there is an internal cost for their own developers, but that is comparatively small to the costs of their paychecks.

The next comes to management of the lightweight solution over time. If it's owned by a company at the end of the day companies are rarely interested in lightweight, they are interested in making the most money and quite often that means adding more and more features to accomplish lock-in.

Open source is more likely to keep a project remaining light, but to do that it's quite often by not accepting bulky features that would make companies more money. So you see where the catch-22 situation starts to arise from.

Comment by wat10000 6 hours ago

Both "works" and "reliably" are doing some really heavy lifting there.

Comment by steve1977 12 hours ago

Reliable as in "exposes the same bug across all platforms"?

Comment by high_na_euv 6 hours ago

Whats so unreliable about electron then?

Comment by steve1977 5 hours ago

Probably not much about Electron itself, but it seems to lead to buggy applications.

Comment by lynx97 12 hours ago

If you are willing to ignore accessibility, your statement is right.

Comment by iwisjwudjqjdw 8 hours ago

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Comment by aix1 14 hours ago

What I'm seeing more and more of is junior folks blindly taking LLM-generated code and including it into their systems, without even trying to understand it or think critically about what it does and where it might break.

Maybe I am living in the past, but it does make me think that they might be depriving themselves of an opportunity to develop key skills.

Comment by pixl97 9 hours ago

>without even trying to understand it or think critically about what it does and where it might break.

You are living in a past, but one much farther back than you expect.

People were copying code from SO since it became popular.

People are including node modules blindly before AI.

Most developers suck, terribly. Maybe being on HN is a type of filter that shows you're just a little bit better than the average, but the number of developers on HN is small versus the total number of developers.

Edit: I was copying code out of magazines to get games running without understanding anything about it when I was young.

Comment by aix1 8 hours ago

First of all, that's a very different sort of thing compared to blindly taking reams of code from an LLM. The amounts of code in a given SO answer or a magazine article are tiny and the code has undergone review of one sort or another. Similarly, if I take QR decomposition code from Numerical Recipes, that's quite likely to be better quality than what I -- or most folks -- can code up in a comparable amount of time. It's also an opportunity to learn by studying the code and the method.

Secondly, I am not talking about some abstract SWEs in a vacuum. This is happening to real people I work with, whom I know to be very capable. The lure of switching off the brain and just clicking "Accept" to some LLM suggestion seems too strong to resist. :(

Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago

Really what you're saying is it is an issue of quantity.

> if I take QR decomposition code from Numerical Recipes,

I'm going to assume the vast majority of code written does not look anything like this, but is dumb little chunks of glue for other important chunks, that are quite often imported from other libraries.

As someone that is not a SWE looking from the outside, I think there is a disconnect between what a SWE is told they are getting paid for and what a SWE is actually getting paid for by (many/most) businesses.

You are under the assumption you are getting paid for writing code. But for the vast majority of business that is just the icky bits getting ground up in the sausage factory that nobody wants to know about. Management above you only cares about what gets wrapped in casings and is ready to sell to the customer (either internal or external). They do not care if the product is technically good as long as they can sell it. For each individual person in the company becoming a better programmer is hard to measure and rarely rewarded by the company they work for. Turning out tons of lines of code and applications that have at least some semblance of working is far more likely to get you a pay raise.

Comment by aix1 7 hours ago

I think we're talking past each other a little bit.

You're talking in the aggregate and making some good points.

I am talking about what concretely I am seeing on the ground. It's become a little too easy to churn out junk that looks plausible enough to pass the initial sniff test but that ultimately results in negative productivity. Someone has to go back and not only redo the initial work but also deal with all the knock-on effects. It's unclear to me that these effects are offset by productivity gains elsewhere. This can also result in highly problematic incentive structures: the initial launch ticks some box, whoever did it gets rewarded and then someone else is left to pick up the pieces. Higher overall cost to the orgnisation and worse experience for the customers than doing it well in the first place.

Not totally clear how to fix this other than by shifting towards longer-term incentive structures (which have their own drawbacks).

None of this is completely new, but has become 10X easier thanks to the current generation of tooling.

This is in addition to my concerns around what this is doing to our junior developers' skills.

Maybe the tooling will soon get good enough that nobody has to ever write any code except for enjoyment, but it's not clear to me that this is the trajectory we're on.

Comment by robotburrito 6 hours ago

Created by an llm using a super computer cluster haha.

Comment by serial_dev 14 hours ago

Then they justify it because they vibe-coded a proof of concept in Tauri, and it was even worse.

Comment by ndr42 14 hours ago

Had to let this here: A TV clip on YouTube of an episode of “That’s Incredible”, featuring Apple co-founder Stephen “Woz” Wozniak (aged 38) running through a maze and nearly winning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJexQjoMtk

(found on the blog of Cabel Sasser: https://cabel.com/woz-vs-wooz/)

Comment by OhMeadhbh 14 hours ago

It's kinda funny... In '89 a friend and I were talking about starting a startup like the two Steve's (we didn't know about Ron Wayne back then.) We both knew exactly what Woz did, but were a bit sketchy on Jobs role in the early days. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Jobs was a layabout, only that the strengths he brought to the table were more abstract.

So I would also say... the kinds of things we learn from Woz are concrete and we get immediate feedback if we learned them wrong.

Comment by Tor3 12 hours ago

Woz talked about the early days in an interview, and he said something like (paraphrasing) "Steve [Jobs] could call companies and get free samples for me, and negotiate low prices for other stuff, something I simply couldn't do".

It sounds like they complemented each other during the startup. And it was Jobs who suggested that they should try running a company.

Comment by pixl97 8 hours ago

At the end of the day many different types are needed to make complex products work. Humans at least are unlikely to be able to accomplish all this individually as it requires character traits that are in conflict with each other.

With all humans the difficult part is getting all the needed traits to make a business/product work without getting ones like backstabbing/jealously that cause problems later.

Comment by gtoubassi 2 hours ago

Hackers by Steven Levy is an incredible story of the industry’s early years (60-80’s) and the characters that were in it for the “love of the game” vs what is more common now (“status and money”). A lot of heroes like woz, but who are less well known in this day and age (Gosper and Greenblatt!). If you are familiar with and a fan of Dealers of Lightning or Dream Machine, check out Hackers! (this is not a paid endorsement).

Comment by ChrisMarshallNY 11 hours ago

> his post-Apple life has mattered in ways that have nothing to do with money or power.

Sounds a bit like Jimmy Carter. His best and most influential work came after he left The Oval Office.

Comment by bazoom42 10 hours ago

Maybe best, but suerly not most influential.

Comment by ChrisMarshallNY 9 hours ago

I guess it depends on people’s priorities. He won that Nobel for some stuff he did in office, but probably more for his peacemaking efforts, afterwards.

I think his Habitat for Humanity work was pretty damn important.

Comment by OhMeadhbh 14 hours ago

I learned some very bad jokes from him.

Comment by yodsanklai 11 hours ago

he's also not afraid to speak out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-f3qZVcWM

Comment by rajayonin 15 hours ago

Only one Woz? What about Scott?

Comment by egoisticalgoat 11 hours ago

As someone who never heard Steve Wozniak being called "Woz", Scott was the only Woz on my mind.

Comment by samtheDamned 2 hours ago

Same here hahaha

Comment by OhMeadhbh 14 hours ago

There would be no Scott were it not for Woz (or even Avi.)

Comment by knorker 15 hours ago

The fact that you have to be more specific than "Scott" says a lot.

Comment by testfrequency 15 hours ago

That’s more likely just you.

Anyone who knows Apple knows who “Scott” is referring to. Scott Forstall.

Comment by LukeShu 15 hours ago

Heh, I assumed he was referring to "Scott the Woz" Scott Wozniak, a vintage-gaming youtuber. I assumed that the GP took a more literal attack on "only one 'Woz'", hile you took a more symbolic "only one engineer of such quality". In the context of Apple, sure "Scott" is Scott Forstall, but that's not necessarily the context.

Comment by testfrequency 15 hours ago

I could be wrong then if that was their reference. I was in the mindset of foundational Apple leaders, not other Woz’s outside the Apple hemisphere.

EDIT: reading this again, now thinking you are right and they are just being snarky about the “one Woz in the world” existing.

Comment by iwisjwudjqjdw 8 hours ago

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Comment by knorker 14 hours ago

Woz is not just "some guy at apple". He's a force in his own right to the point of being bigger than Apple in some ways.

"Woz" is googlable. His name doesn't need context. "Larry" could be Ellison or Page. "Scott" could be Forstall or Adams.

Who played Scott Forstall in the movie?

Anyway, other comments proven it's not just me, too.

Comment by wat10000 5 hours ago

My first computer was an Apple IIGS and everything since then has been a Mac. "Scott" doesn't bring anyone specific to mind for me. Maybe that connection is automatic for newcomers who immediately think "iPhone" when they hear "Apple."

Comment by testfrequency 5 hours ago

I had a very long career at Apple. I have also met and spent time with Woz on multiple occasions. I have some bias here.

Possibly my assumption was incorrectly based more on people who actually worked at Apple vs what the normal public thinks of when they hear “Scott” and “Woz” in the context of Apple.

Comment by wat10000 3 hours ago

It would make sense that people on the inside would be a lot more aware of him. Forstall was obviously a pretty big name in the community but not to the point of getting a shorthand name like that. And he was mostly forgotten pretty quickly after he left.

Comment by vasco 15 hours ago

That's crazy because I assumed they were obviously talking about Apple's first CEO.

For "Scott Apple" search string, Google agrees with me and the forstall guy is just a secondary mention.

Comment by testfrequency 14 hours ago

For me he will always be “Scotty”. “Scott” at Apple will almost always imply Scott Forstall.

Comment by m-s-y 9 hours ago

That “but” needs to be an “and”.

Comment by 10 hours ago

Comment by qingcharles 15 hours ago

Coincidentally one of the earliest Apple I prototypes ends its auction tomorrow if you have over $500K to spare:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46605420

Comment by Joel_Mckay 11 hours ago

I find it amusing people still port in WozMon for modern 6502 trainer hobby machines. =3

Comment by q2dg 14 hours ago

For me, anyone who is involved in FOSDEM in any way deserves more respect (regarding revolutionary things we can learn)

Comment by direwolf20 12 hours ago

You can just go to FOSDEM, it's open entry. If you're in Brussels this weekend.

Comment by ece 5 hours ago

I saw him at a meetup in the south bay years ago. Definitely kind spoken and generous in answering questions. It was a highlight for me after moving to the bay area.

Comment by andrewstuart 11 hours ago

People are crediting Woz here with great things but not going far enough.

Woz invented the consumer personal computer.

That is one of the greatest inventions in human history, perhaps the greatest.

Comment by BirAdam 9 hours ago

Well, that's a highly contested claim. There was quite a bit of prior art.

Comment by mrexcess 6 hours ago

>Woz invented the consumer personal computer.

Definitely had a hand in it. If you want to dime out the singular technical innovation that Woz contributed that really changed everything, IMO it was figuring out how to make the Apple II do color on the cheap. That was the real competitive differentiator at the time that made personal computers attractive to consumers, and cheap enough to contemplate for folks without a garage full of electronics equipment.

Comment by 8 hours ago

Comment by alnwlsn 7 hours ago

Some might say he gets too much credit. For example this Woz quote

“It was the first time in history anyone had typed a character on a keyboard and seen it show up on their own computer’s screen right in front of them.”

seems pretty believable, especially if you don't know the names Don Lancaster or Jonathan Titus. Woz might not have at the time, and indeed Lancaster was not first either.

Comment by NetMageSCW 7 hours ago

As far as I know, Don never had a computer and the Mark-8 used LEDs.

Comment by iwisjwudjqjdw 8 hours ago

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Comment by mocmoc 11 hours ago

Woz is the man

Comment by maximgeorge 15 hours ago

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