In a genre where spoilers are devastating, how do we talk about puzzle games?
Posted by tobr 6 days ago
Comments
Comment by outforwilds 22 hours ago
Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls.
I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings.
Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly.
It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out.
Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience.
I highly recommend the game to anyone.
Comment by Terr_ 20 hours ago
1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time.
2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate.
3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.
Comment by Wojtkie 4 hours ago
Comment by ishouldstayaway 48 minutes ago
Comment by smallmancontrov 17 hours ago
Comment by Terr_ 15 hours ago
Comment by hibikir 13 hours ago
Comment by tialaramex 8 hours ago
FWIW while I enjoyed watching other people play Outer Wilds, I found the fine control needed too frustrating. I might decide to investigate part of Brittle Hollow, travel there, fall into the hole, painstakingly get back, fall in again, reset, new day. That's exactly the same frustration you had, but for a different reason and as a result I was often unable to tell which of three things was true:
1. That cannot be done, it's an important fact about Outer Wilds, a revelation
2. I can't do that, I'm incompetent. Sucks to be me. Maybe try again?
3. That cannot be done, whoops, game engine limitation, unimportant.
I never had this in Blue Prince and so I was much better able to enjoy both the game itself and watching others play after I was done (Atelier etc.)
Comment by BoppreH 5 hours ago
And another (smaller) issue is the step limit. End game has you running to pretty far away areas. The walking itself quickly gets old, but you sometimes waste the entire run because you didn't have enough steps for the required back-and-forth.
That being said, I greatly enjoyed how note-taking was rewarded. By the end I had over 600 screenshots organized in different folders.
Comment by tialaramex 4 hours ago
The step limit is an important resource. There's a reason one of the early goals of the game (in Bequest and to some extent Dare modes) is to have more steps at the start of each day and why an important penalty of Curse mode is that you only have 13 steps. As with other resources like keys, you can learn to make better use of what you have and also how to get more of it within reason. I don't think it's as good of a game without Steps. They're not (outside Curse mode) scarce enough to commonly end a run, but they matter.
Comment by BoppreH 4 hours ago
I wouldn't suggest removing steps entirely, but maybe something softer than abruptly ending the day. After exhausting my steps, let me walk around without drafting rooms and picking up items, for example.
And the late game puzzle quality was very hit-and-miss for me. I loved the sigils, for example, and appreciated the permanent upgrades/changes. Other puzzles required putting disparate items/ideas together, but by then the game had expanded too much and it was unclear what paths were exhausted, still useful, or simply fluff, and the randomness made every check time-consuming.
Comment by thunderfork 1 hour ago
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Comment by Terr_ 15 hours ago
Comment by ishouldstayaway 44 minutes ago
Comment by zeroonetwothree 15 hours ago
A puzzle game I liked 100x more is “Baba is You”. Should be very appealing to programmers.
Comment by stavros 10 hours ago
I don't know if I'm missing something that would make the game click for me, or if I just won't enjoy it. I can't ask anyone, because I'll ruin it if I am actually missing something.
Comment by Zizizizz 9 hours ago
Comment by stavros 9 hours ago
Comment by superultra 7 hours ago
As someone who’s played a lot of video games, very few gameshave come close to the experience that was Outer Wilds.
Textbook definition of a game I wish I could forget so I could play again for the first time.
Comment by pluralmonad 19 hours ago
Comment by mh2266 15 hours ago
Outer Wilds, though, what a game. but it felt more like exploring in BotW, even although there is obviously no combat... kinda? there is sort of "combat" in one of the planets, although the only thing that you can do is lose. hmm, that planet is like BotW, but you have 3 hearts and a stick, and every enemy is a Lynel.
Comment by mpyne 14 hours ago
And when I finally put the game down and just watched through the rest on Youtube, like, I could see what the game was getting at and why people would be fascinated by it but it was by no means life-changing unless you've had a very boring life.
Comment by dugidugout 14 hours ago
Comment by Hammershaft 13 hours ago
I didn't find the game to require much dexterity, but I did find it to have interest world design and ideas that have stuck with me for years.
Comment by 3eb7988a1663 12 hours ago
If nothing else, there are some sections which have somewhat tight time windows which can put a lot of tension into a puzzle game. Resetting an attempt to a failed set piece might take several minutes, adding to the frustration.
Comment by ishouldstayaway 42 minutes ago
Why this shitty jab at the end? What a needlessly petty thing to say.
Comment by mathieuh 12 hours ago
Comment by the__alchemist 20 hours ago
The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
Comment by bsimpson 12 hours ago
What are the games you're recommending?
Comment by xerox13ster 9 hours ago
“How do we talk to people about these games without spoiling it for them? Oh, I know I will spoil it for everybody who reads this article!!!
“It’s one of my favorite in the genre (maybe the best) and it requires a level of secrecy because it takes away the wow factor if you learn details about it early, but ANYWAYS here’s some details about it!!!!!!!!”
Comment by the__alchemist 6 hours ago
Comment by runevault 18 hours ago
Comment by superultra 7 hours ago
The controls are wonky but it’s not a AAA title, so there are things about it that are a little rough for sure.
Comment by glimshe 2 hours ago
Blue Prince is the best puzzle game in the past 10 years.
Comment by embedding-shape 20 hours ago
Comment by zargon 18 hours ago
Comment by ajoseps 20 hours ago
Comment by outforwilds 19 hours ago
Introduces what is easily my favorite planet, and a completely new story of nearly identical length.
New characters, new tools, new mechanics, new puzzles. Same feel (except narratively its a bit more spoopy). It's like a selfquel.
(Also, worth noting that if you start a new game, you can just go straight to playing the DLC content without having to replay or complete the base game)
Comment by tialaramex 18 hours ago
If you know that you frighten easily and don't react well to it - like maybe you went in a haunted house ride once and then couldn't sleep for a week, this might not be your jam and that's OK.
It's not a skill issue, the game has been conceived so that if you scare easily but keep playing you can work around the issue and succeed. But obviously if after that initial moment of terror you just can't face playing any more that's not a good purchase.
Comment by outforwilds 18 hours ago
Comment by jamilton 17 hours ago
Still spooky atmosphere for sure.
Comment by epiccoleman 15 hours ago
Comment by superultra 7 hours ago
Comment by humodz 19 hours ago
Comment by archargelod 19 hours ago
Comment by Cthulhu_ 9 hours ago
Anyway, that aside, it's a great game, you get a board where you can see everything you've discovered, whether you missed anything important, and links to other things you can pursue still. Or just go to a random planet / place of interest.
Comment by robinhouston 21 hours ago
I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them.
If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.
Comment by rjh29 14 hours ago
When I do the New York Times crossword too, I'll try to figure it out without hints. If no progress for 10-20 minutes, I'm opening google. I enjoy it more this way.
Comment by account42 7 hours ago
Comment by rjh29 1 hour ago
Weird thing to say in a thread where most of us are puzzle game fans. Who exactly are you speaking for?
Comment by kartoffelsaft 4 hours ago
Have you never had a puzzle like that? Where the "struggle" would entail sitting there staring at the puzzle with 0 clue for a few hours? A majority of puzzle games I've played have 1 or 2 of these, and they aren't even bad games.
Comment by chongli 15 hours ago
I agree with you though. The idea of having my sudoku puzzle spoiled for me by giving me a critical digit seems totally alien. They might as well be the kid blurting out answers in math class, depriving everyone else of learning. Of course many kids in the class were happy to have the "freebies" even though it contributed to lack of skills down the road.
Comment by cyxxon 9 hours ago
Comment by xnorswap 9 hours ago
When I think of puzzle games I think mostly of geometric reasoning problems like The Talos Principle and The Witness.
Comment by account42 7 hours ago
Except they usually don't require you to do that. The so-called "moon logic" in those games might not follow the rules of our world but it is still a kind of logic that you can master nonetheless.
Comment by krige 8 hours ago
Yes?
> I find it is more like bringing the games difficulty down to an acceptable level.
Yes, that's what cheating usually does? Apart from the extinct sub-genre of cheats like big head mode.
Comment by account42 7 hours ago
Those are just easter eggs, which are not extinct.
Comment by bombcar 21 hours ago
I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
Comment by epiccoleman 15 hours ago
There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls.
It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
Comment by bombcar 1 hour ago
And then I know what I need to do, I know it's doable, and then I get frustrated trying to do it in game.
Comment by qwertytyyuu 13 hours ago
Comment by zeroonetwothree 15 hours ago
My limit might be lower than yours but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong having a limit that means you shouldn’t play puzzle games.
Comment by ghtbircshotbe 4 hours ago
Comment by mh2266 14 hours ago
some of the harder ones I did screenshot and overlay in Inkscape and draw out the candidate shapes, which I guess isn't really cheating?
Comment by OisinMoran 18 hours ago
[0] Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCHciE9CYfA
Comment by robinhouston 1 hour ago
Comment by jrgoff 18 hours ago
When I played through Blue Prince, I had an important area of the game undiscovered for in game weeks because I just didn't notice a path that was not meant to be hidden. It was in an area that it made no sense for me to further explore because it was challenging to get to and seemed to have nothing else to offer (I presumed until I had unlocked something further in the game). It was a big relief when I was talking through my progress with a friend who was further along than I, and they prompted me to go back and look again.
Comment by OisinMoran 18 hours ago
Also very glad I looked up the solution for the Obelisk puzzle in Fez as there was no way I was getting that (seemingly incredibly contrived, but apparently not correctly solved yet) solution.
Comment by tedsanders 5 hours ago
Perhaps one difference between the author and me is that I usually have closed-ended questions rather than open-ended questions like “give me a minimal clue that’s helpful but not obvious”, for which I’d trust ChatGPT far less.
Comment by BoppreH 8 hours ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs
I can vouch for Outer Wilds and Tunic being masterpieces, with Blue Prince getting a B+ from me.
Comment by maest 7 hours ago
Comment by BoppreH 6 hours ago
On the other hand, it gets extra points for the in-game manual booklet. The mechanics, the metaphor, and the gorgeous execution should be required material in game design classes.
Comment by phreack 13 hours ago
Comment by Kreutzer 1 hour ago
>I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game.
Demon Souls' system of leaving little messages behind for other players is sort of similar.
Comment by chaps 22 hours ago
Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
Comment by outforwilds 21 hours ago
Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough.
I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way.
And I miss the world, and the gameplay.
Comment by tialaramex 18 hours ago
Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena
1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached.
2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave.
My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.
Comment by a_t48 13 hours ago
Comment by tialaramex 6 hours ago
Comment by a_t48 32 minutes ago
Comment by zeta0134 18 hours ago
Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.
Comment by alikim 21 hours ago
Comment by 1qaboutecs 22 hours ago
Comment by guerrilla 22 hours ago
Comment by OkayPhysicist 20 hours ago
Comment by lelandfe 18 hours ago
Comment by LelouBil 14 hours ago
So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.
Comment by krige 8 hours ago
Comment by jszymborski 6 hours ago
Comment by hnlmorg 10 hours ago
I'm not someone who uses LLMs heavily, but I've found this kind of usecase suited my needs very nicely.
Comment by xerox13ster 9 hours ago
Comment by vintermann 6 hours ago
But it seems to me spoilers are mostly for narrative puzzle games, or secret twist / riddle puzzle games. There are a lot of puzzle games where you either can't look up the solution (games like Demon Bluff) or where looking up the solution/hints mostly spoils one level at worst (e.g. Baba is You).
Comment by account42 7 hours ago
A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with.
> Because information equals progress in this genre, there’s typically no way to brute force the path forward whenever you find yourself truly stuck.
Except that is almost always possible - games by their very nature are usually very restricted in what you can do which makes exploration of all possible options possible. But usually better would be trying to reason about the problem. Looking up outside help is and has always been equivalent to giving up - which is fine if you don't want to solve the puzzle but definitely not needed to progress if you are patient.
Comment by polytely 7 hours ago
I don't think that follows at all, I'm currently working through Blue Prince and the way in which that game gives you information later on which completely recontextualizes things you have encountered earlier makes it so that a screenshot of something could definitely rob you of experiencing that moment, which is a big part of the joy of that game.
Comment by tialaramex 6 hours ago