SoundCloud just banned VPN access
Posted by empressplay 11 hours ago
Comments
Comment by majorchord 11 hours ago
Comment by tallytarik 8 hours ago
There are also other methods, like using zmap/zgrab to probe for servers that respond to VPN software handshakes, which can in theory be run against the entire IP space. (this also highlights non-commercial VPNs which are not generally the target of our detection, so we use this sparingly)
It will never cover every VPN or proxy in existence, but it gets pretty close.
Comment by acka 1 hour ago
Assuming your VPN identification service operates commercially, I trust that you are in full compliance with all contractual agreements and Terms of Service for the services you utilize. Many of these agreements specifically prohibit commercial use, which could encompass the harvesting of exit node IP addresses and the subsequent sale of such information.
Comment by addandsubtract 1 hour ago
Comment by ranger_danger 22 minutes ago
The legitimate end-user will then no longer be able to use e.g. SoundCloud.
Comment by rdsubhas 4 hours ago
Comment by jijijijij 1 hour ago
If using a VPN for access is forbidden by the ToS, you only need to detect a VPN connection once to prove violation.
The IPv4 address space to consider is limited and it is technically absolutely feasible to exhaustively scrape and block the majority of VPN endpoints. Realistically any VPN provider will have some rather small IPv4 subnets make do, shit's expensive. More so, for the trivial case, VPN anonymization works best, when many people share one IP endpoint, naturally the spread is limited. There are VPN providers, some may even be trustworthy, which have the mission of "flying under the radar" with residential IPs and all, but they are way, waaaay more expensive. For most people that's no option.
IPv6 is a different matter, but with the very increase in tracking and access control discussed here, that may be even more of a reason, IPv6 is not going to be a thing any time soon....
Thinking about it, maybe this AI monetization FOMO and monopoly protectionism, will incidentally lead to a technological split of the web. IPv4 will become the "corpo net" and IPv6 will be the "alt net". I think there may be a chance to make IPv6 the cool internet of the people, right now!
Comment by ranger_danger 18 minutes ago
But an IP address is not a person (legally in the US at least), and many IPv4 addresses get re-used fairly often. My home 5G internet changes IP every single day, and it's a constant struggle because other users often get my IP blocked for things I didn't do. I cannot even visit etsy.com for example. Just for fun I even checked 4chan and the IP was banned for CP, months before I ever had this particular IP (because I'm paranoid and track all that stuff).
Comment by protocolture 11 hours ago
Its not perfect ofc, but its not meant to be. Its usually just used as a safety blanket for geoblocked intellectual property, like netflix.
Comment by itake 10 hours ago
Maybe they mean commercial VPN providers that run on the cloud?
Comment by oefrha 10 hours ago
Comment by kotaKat 3 hours ago
Comment by TZubiri 7 hours ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45926849
Besides the political implications, I think we should try to find an objective taxonomy, it's clear that privacy VPNs and network security VPNs are different products semantically, commercially and legally, even if the same core tech is used.
Possibly the configuration and network topology is different even, making it a technically different product, similar to how a DNS might be either an authorative server for a TLD, an ISP proxy for an end user, a consumer blacklist like pihole, or an industrial blacklist like spamhaus. It would be a non trivial mistake to conflate any pair of those and bring one up in an argument that refers to the other.
Comment by delusional 8 hours ago
It's not that he doesn't know the difference. He's making the argument that since there's no _technical_ difference there can be no legal difference.
Comment by Mashimo 5 hours ago
Comment by zinekeller 8 hours ago
It doesn't really matter that a single person has found a loophole because many, many other people don't have such a luxury, and that's what the lawmakers are aiming for.
Comment by marcus_holmes 6 hours ago
It's going to be interesting when the majority of the UK accesses the internet via VPN because of the increasingly ridiculous hoops that the UK makes them go through, and the government tries to stop them while also allowing VPNs to be used by the tech sector.
I agree, these are two separate legal processes powered by the same technology. But the internet doesn't have any awareness of legality (thankfully) so we're stuck with only the technical meaning.
Comment by hdgvhicv 4 hours ago
I doubt that.
Comment by fragmede 10 hours ago
Comment by gruez 9 hours ago
Comment by sersi 7 hours ago
I do actually give VPN access to my mother that is not technically competent but I have full access to her computer and locked her down as much as possible
Comment by wredcoll 9 hours ago
Comment by cyberrock 9 hours ago
Comment by politelemon 7 hours ago
Comment by positr0n 8 hours ago
Comment by Lapel2742 2 hours ago
I just tried it with a well known commercial VPN and I had no problems accessing the site and its music content.
Comment by aaomidi 9 hours ago
Here’s one database to check.
Comment by protocolture 10 hours ago
Bit of a non sequitur, you would have to outline your entire usage pattern to even submit that as N=1.
GEOIP providers dont sit on your home network. They do accept data from third parties, and are themselves (likely) subscribed to other IP addressing lists. Mostly they are a data aggregator, and its garbage in > garbage out.
If someone, say netflix, but other services participate, flag you as having an inconsistent location, they may forward those details on and you can get added to one of these lists. You might see ip bans at various content providers.
But the implementation is so slapshod that you can just as likely, poison a single ip in a CGNAT pool, and have it take over a month for anyone to act on it, where some other users on your same ISP might experience the issue.
These things can also be weighted by usage, larger amounts of traffic are more interesting because it can represent a pool of more users, or more IP infringement per user.
You can also get hit from poor IP reputation, hosting a webserver with a proxy or php reverse shell, or a hundred other things.
(Also, larger ISPs might deal with a GEOIP provider selling lists of VPN users that include their IP address space, legally, rather than just going through the process of getting the list updated normally. This means the GEOIP providers can get skittish around some ISPs and might just not include them in lists)
Comment by zinekeller 8 hours ago
Comment by mycall 10 hours ago
or in my case, have a VM on same subnet as other poor actors and thus get bad rep from others.
Comment by makeitdouble 8 hours ago
They probably assume some amount of collateral damage, a small number of VPN users still flying under the radar, the bulk of VPN users being properly targeted, and the vast majority of users not noticing anything.
Comment by dJLcnYfsE3 5 hours ago
Comment by reisse 5 hours ago
Comment by polski-g 9 hours ago
Comment by xiconfjs 7 hours ago
Comment by joecool1029 6 hours ago
yeah sure, if you ignore the existence of literally every mobile isp.
Comment by zinekeller 8 hours ago
Comment by cbzbc 7 hours ago
Comment by xfeeefeee 11 hours ago
Comment by voltagexd 1 hour ago
Comment by pixel_popping 20 minutes ago
Comment by lightyrs 9 hours ago
Comment by rsync 7 hours ago
... or were you simply using a VPN and that's the most likely culprit for a general failure of the service ?
Genuinely curious ...
Comment by vpShane 6 hours ago
Instead of blocking or limiting features to whitelist users with approved behavioral patterns and limit / block those that don't -- such as loading a page and immediately commenting or doing things that normal humans don't do, they block IP addresses and ASNs.
I just close the browser tab and remind myself not to waste my time caring, there'll be other platforms.
My router is setup for WireGaurd and it'll never be disabled.
Shame on SoundCloud
Comment by sigmoid10 5 hours ago
As someone who has both spent quite a bit of time writing scrapers and later lots of headache on blocking malicious bots from accessing websites, I can tell you this has become futile. Bot makers aren't stupid. If you put in a check for how fast actions are performed, they will put in a sleep timer in their script. If you start blocking residential IPs because many people use it, you are probably just blocking a school or dormitory, while the real bots will quickly move to another IP once they smell something is off. Today with modern multimodal LLMs, you can bypass almost every "human-check" imaginable. And if they can't pass something, most of your users sure as hell won't either. Not because it is too hard, but because it will take too long to solve. The sweet 3-15s actionable human intelligence threshold has been passed by now. The cats and dogs type captchas were already solved more than 12 years ago by simple CV machine learning. The tech has progressed an insane amount since then. In the end I always ended up basically doing what SoundCloud did here if my service was sensitive: Block entire countries, all tor exit nodes and all known VPN ASNs. That will get it down by like 90%. Bear in mind that anyone who wants to put in some effort will still easily bypass this, but at least the low-effort guys from third world countries will take a while before they catch on. So you can go back to doing some actual work in the meantime.
Comment by bilekas 6 hours ago
This is the main issue here, the web has become actively hostile to normal people in the quest to monetize every second of online activity.
Comment by prosody 10 hours ago
Comment by danpalmer 10 hours ago
Could also be spam/abuse prevention. Credential stuffing often goes through VPNs, signup over VPN is a strong signal for future abuse or issues in various ways.
Comment by rendaw 1 hour ago
Comment by digitalsushi 5 minutes ago
Comment by Rastonbury 10 hours ago
Comment by kaizenb 6 hours ago
Comment by switz 6 hours ago
VPNs often use providers with excellent peering and networking - the same providers that scrapers would want to use.
Comment by SchemaLoad 10 hours ago
Comment by devwastaken 7 minutes ago
Comment by elashri 10 hours ago
Comment by gruez 10 hours ago
Comment by alex-robbins 6 hours ago
Comment by pixel_popping 20 minutes ago
Comment by suslik 7 hours ago
Comment by cedws 3 hours ago
Comment by syntaxing 10 hours ago
Comment by october8140 10 hours ago
Comment by 999900000999 11 hours ago
Comment by big-chungus4 6 hours ago
Comment by diimdeep 8 hours ago
Patreon also banned VPN
YouTube, Reddit - locked out, requiring to log into account, on pretense of security and care concerns, yeah to identify and track VPN users.
Comment by mig39 10 hours ago
Comment by timbit42 44 minutes ago
Comment by extraduder_ire 9 hours ago
Comment by hdra 9 hours ago
with soundcloud, i just got a generic 403 from cloudfront
combine that with country-level internet filter, the internet is getting harder and harder to use :(
Comment by rjh29 4 hours ago
Comment by miyuru 6 hours ago
I used that once and got in trouble with the client since the ruleset was over blocking.
Comment by rekabis 9 hours ago
Comment by pixel_popping 19 minutes ago
Comment by beej71 9 hours ago
Comment by thenthenthen 10 hours ago
Comment by t0lo 9 hours ago
Comment by bird0861 5 hours ago
Comment by russelg 1 hour ago
Lidarr relies on people ripping this music, and also adding the metadata to Musicbrainz, which just simply isn't going to happen for most SC uploads.
Comment by arcknighttech 10 hours ago