The Problem of Teaching Physics in Latin America (1963)

Posted by rramadass 17 hours ago

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Comment by bariumbitmap 5 minutes ago

For those interested in a kind of retrospective about 40 years after Feynman's speech, read "Physics in Latin America Comes of Age" (published in 2000) by José Luis Morán‐López:

> At the end of the 20th century, a large “science gap” still exists between Latin America and the developed countries of the North.

> The description is not intended to be a complete analysis, but may give a sense of the significant development that has occurred in the past half century and of what might be needed to make the 21st century a flourishing epoch for science in Latin America .

> The most developed group includes Brazil, Mexico, and Argentina, which have, respectively, about 3000, 2200, and 2000 PhDs involved in physics research.

https://physicstoday.aip.org/features/physics-in-latin-ameri...

https://aip.brightspotcdn.com/PTO.v53.i10.38_1.online.pdf

Feynman, of course, always had confidence in the ability of the people of Latin America to do good physics. In fact his mentor Manuel Sandoval Vallarta was born in Mexico and emigrated to the US to study at MIT. Emigration to the US or Europe is typical of successful physicists from Latin America, including Juan Maldacena, a theorist from Argentina who discovered the AdS/CFT correspondence and has been a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study since 2001.

Anecdotally, I think Europe has more opportunities these days. My friend Gustavo, a high energy theorist from Brazil, got his PhD in the US but now works at the Oskar Klein Centre for Cosmo Particle Physics (OKC) in Stockholm.

Comment by anonymousiam 7 hours ago

It's been many decades since I read it, but there was some mention of this in Feynman's first autobiography (Surely You're Joking). He described learning about the problem and investigating the root cause, which is also described in this speech. (The root cause was a focus on the memorization of scattered facts vs. making students understand the subject matter.)

Comment by ozim 6 hours ago

Why do we expect school or university to teach „understanding”.

It is like teaching snowboarding. You can get the pointers but students have to actually do the snowboarding - there is no shortcut.

The same with knowledge and understanding, you can organize material so they don’t end up in unproductive rabbit holes - but they have to work out their understanding on their own.

Classroom setting is also not really good one unless you have small groups on the same level - larger group and you are just pulling slow ones up and fast ones are getting bored.

Comment by setopt 5 hours ago

As someone teaching in higher education, I’d say that you can certainly incentivize the students to learn "understanding", although I agree that a lot is up to the student.

Some basic examples:

- Don’t give test and exam questions that are too similar to examples and problems in the text book and homework. Then they’ll know that learning to generalize is a better pay-off than memorizing the textbook problems, and may choose to change their strategy when studying for exams.

- Reduce the amount of curriculum. By studying in depth instead of in breadth, you have time to focus on how things really work instead of just rushing through material on a surface level, and in my experience that improves understanding more. (But I know many disagree with me on this one.)

- Focus on problem solving as part of the lectures (student-active learning). I’m not an extremist, like some advocating that we shouldn’t lecture at all, but the pedagogical literature is pretty clear that small doses of lectures interspersed with problem solving enhances understanding.

- Try to teach intuition and conceptual models, not just facts. For example, as a student, I really struggled understanding eigenvalues and eigenvectors because our linear algebra textbook defined it by Αv = λv but made no attempt at explaining what it means intuitively and geometrically. Similarly, integration by parts has a simple and beautiful geometric interpretation that makes it obvious why this is correct, but we were only taught the opaque symbolic version in my calculus classes. When I teach myself, I try to lean on such visualizations and intuitive pictures as much as possible, as I think that really enhances «understanding»; not necessarily being able to cough up a solution to a problem you’ve seen before as fast as possible, but being able to generalize that knowledge to problems you haven’t seen before.

But who knows, maybe I’m just biased by how I myself perceive the world. I know there are some people who for example eschew geometric pictures entirely and still do very well. My experience is that most students seem to appreciate the things listed above though.

Comment by rramadass 4 hours ago

You are absolutely right on all points!

Students need to take responsibility for themselves and Teachers need to point them in the right direction and help/steer as needed.

A Chinese Martial Arts saying which i keep in mind goes;

To show one the right direction and the right path, oral instructions from a Master are necessary, but mastery of the subject only comes from one's own incessant self-cultivation.

A good authoritative book can be the stand-in for a Master in which case there is more discipline and effort required of the Student.

These days different types of books/videos focusing on different aspects of the same subject are so easily available/affordable that the Teacher/Student can both work together and focus on understanding. A handful of real-world problems modeled and worked through beats pages of mere symbol manipulation. We need to start stressing quality over quantity i.e. deliberate effort via deliberate practice in the right way.

Comment by watwut 2 hours ago

The Feynman essay here is all about the teachers NOT pointing the students toward understanding.

And it is all about the students being disciplined and putting in effort, but toward rote memorization rather then understanding, because that is what teachers told them to do.

Comment by rramadass 2 hours ago

I was agreeing/elaborating on "setopt's" comment (which lists specific approaches) on how to solve the problem detailed in the essay.

I had submitted the original article for discussion since the observations seem to apply to how Physics/Science has been taught/studied in most countries and not just Latin America.

Comment by Ozzie_osman 5 hours ago

> Why do we expect school or university to teach „understanding”.

Having been taught in different systems that emphasize understanding vs memorization, I'd have to disagree. The teachers and the overall academic system can encourage, test for, and reward rote memorization. Or it can encourage, test for, and reward problem-solving, critical thinking, and understanding.

Everything from the way teachers lecture, to assigned reading, to assignments, to tests will influence how students think and what they optimize for. There will always be exceptions who forge their own path, but most students like most people just go with the flow.

Comment by adrianN 5 hours ago

Students study to pass exams, teachers teach to enable students to pass exams. If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for.

Comment by Swizec 5 hours ago

> If your grading is based mostly on correctly reproducing facts and applying algorithms you memorized then that’s the outcome your education system optimizes for

My favorite college class was compilers.

The whole semester you worked on a compiler for a simplified Pascal. Each homework added a feature.

The final exam was 4 hours. Open textbook, open internet. No chat with classmates. You got a description of 3 features to add to your compiler. Grade is number of tests passed.

Fantastic way to teach understanding.

Comment by Ntrails 3 hours ago

My uni claimed grading was something like:

~ 40% bookwork. Rote learned facts ~ 30% standard questions. Do in an exam hall standard variants of what was done in class/homework/tutorials. ~ 30% New applications and logical extensions.

I don't know how well they achieved that split, I suspect it was mostly aspirational. Seemed like a reasonable ideal though!

Comment by hks0 5 hours ago

I agree with your both of your observations; And I also think what's missing is the acknowledgement that connects the two. Students come with the expectation of "chew it for me" and schools have the expectation of "I'm going to throw the material at you, you can & will handle it yourself".

But it doesn't need to be that hopeless. Learning is a skill and schools can help each individual find the ways working best for them. Starting by not packing gazillion number of people in a class.

Comment by canjobear 3 hours ago

> The same with knowledge and understanding, you can organize material so they don’t end up in unproductive rabbit holes - but they have to work out their understanding on their own.

Problem sets with feedback.

Comment by atoav 4 hours ago

As a university level educator I am pretty confident most universities worth their salt do in fact teach you by "actually doing the snowboarding" to stay with your analogy.

But it is also true that (1) not all universities (or all departments, or all professors) are worth their salt and (2) snowboarding may not be a skill that is highly sought after in the society you live in.

Gladly most academic skillsets are highly transferable if the student isn't totally dull.

Comment by rramadass 7 hours ago

This speech by Feynman was based on his experiences teaching Physics in Brazil in the 1950s (details mentioned in the "Surely You're Joking" book). "tomhow" has posted the link to a previous HN discussion specifically w.r.t. the Brazil experience.

However, this speech generalizes and posits that the problem is not specific to Latin America but to most countries (including so-called developed ones) in the teaching of Physics or any other Science.

Hence the opening para;

The problem of teaching physics in Latin America is only part of the wider problem of teaching physics anywhere. In fact, it is part of the problem of teaching anything anywhere – a problem for which there is no known satisfactory solution.

I think this is highly pertinent today given the use of AI/LLM models for extracting "correct answers" to all of settled (mostly) Science. At least with a textbook you had to expend some thought/effort; with AI tools even that is removed and you literally need know/understand even less than before.

So where does that leave Science Education? How do we reform the Education System?

Comment by mieses 7 hours ago

AI will wreck your capitalized "Education System" and that is good. We'll be fine.

Comment by easyThrowaway 5 hours ago

Fully agree with your first statement, mush less so with the other two.

Comment by claaams 6 hours ago

Its crazy he thinks that learning physics is the solution: I believe that in the improvement of the technical ability, thus the productivity, of the people of Latin America lies the source of real economic advancement.

and not the fact that the US has spent 150+ years destabilizing that part of the world.

Comment by nyeah 22 minutes ago

In 1963, I think learning physics was considered to be a way of improving technical ability. "Tech" now means "software intended to attract VC interest." But the word had a much broader meaning in the past.

Also now the US is being destabilized. So we are beginning to get some valuable first-hand experience.

Comment by stinkbeetle 4 hours ago

Lots of places have been unstable for many years though. China, most of Europe, Russia, India, Korea. Some have shrugged that off others haven't, so it does not seem to have much predictive power.

Comment by xandrius 3 hours ago

I'd say the extent and duration of the disruption between Latin America and the counties you mentioned are quite different.

LATAM started from the get go being awfully disrupted from the 1500s and in catastrophic ways. Also, we don't call any of those areas Latin X. It shows how much impact the conquerors had that it even defines how we can the region to this day.

Comment by stinkbeetle 3 hours ago

> I'd say the extent and duration of the disruption between Latin America and the counties you mentioned are quite different.

I don't think it is. Europe was full of wars, civil wars, conquest, occupation, and suppression and destabilization of competing nations for all that time, for example.

Comment by igogq425 2 hours ago

If you tried to back up your assumption with figures or with specific historical facts, you would see that it is wrong. It's not just about the fact that there was instability somewhere at some point, but about how it is being perpetuated. The countries you list above are very diverse. But what they all have in common, and what distinguishes them from countries in Latin America, is that there is a lot of ocean between them and the US. Admittedly, this also applies to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. But if we examine the question of what distinguishes these countries from the ones you list, it brings us back to the connection that was already pointed out above. I live in Germany and have had access to toothpaste my whole life. People my age in Cuba can still remember very well what it was like to have to do without toothpaste. Now ask your favorite LLM who temporarily prevented toothpaste from being imported into Cuba.

Comment by boxed 1 hour ago

Blaming Cubas struggles on the US without acknowledging that Cuba, for example, has labor camps for children, is kinda silly imo.

It's a brutal dictatorship very similar to Iran. Let's all keep that in mind.

Comment by igogq425 9 minutes ago

I can find nothing to support the claim that Cuba allegedly has labor camps for children. As far as I can see, this is an unsubstantiated propaganda claim. It is well known that the US is currently having ICE round up people off the streets and imprison them throughout the country. There is evidence that five-year-old children are being detained separately from their parents. The ability of people to apply double standards is always astonishing.

https://www.amnesty.de/sites/default/files/2025-03/030_2025_...

And it is simply irrational not to link Cuba's problems with the US embargo.

Comment by girvo 1 hour ago

That really downplays the turmoil China has gone through. It’s at least equal.

Comment by 4gotunameagain 3 hours ago

Every place has been unstable at some point.

And every place actively destabilized by an empire is definitely unstable.

The amount of coups directly planned and executed or supported by the US military/intelligence/lobbying apparatus in south America and the rest of the world is incredible.

And then the presidents have the audacity to say that it is the right and responsibility of the locals to govern (as said by biden on Afghanistan exit).

It truly has been the most exploitative empire ever. I hope the Chinese do better. We'll find out.

Comment by actionfromafar 9 minutes ago

I see now evidence at all they will do better. Rather the opposite.

Comment by sabellito 3 hours ago

You're replying in good faith to someone who ignored the main point of GP (an empire actively disrupting a region) and just said "every place has been unstable" (without even taking century-level timescales into consideration).

Comment by stinkbeetle 3 hours ago

> an empire actively disrupting a region

> century-level timescales

Doesn't sound very scientific or predictive. Is also ignorant of history. Ottoman empire lasted many centuries. So did Roman empire. Which crushed and oppressed and destabilized a lot of Europe. China famously had their "century of humiliation" which was "century-level timescale" of "empire actively disrupting a region".

Comment by 4gotunameagain 2 hours ago

You are right, but I felt morally compelled.

Comment by Ozzie_osman 5 hours ago

It could definitely be both.

Comment by boxed 1 hour ago

> and not the fact that the US has spent 150+ years destabilizing that part of the world.

Latin America is bigger than Cuba and Chile...

Comment by dndjfkfkrk 5 hours ago

[flagged]

Comment by zorked 3 hours ago

> This, along with the fact that salaries are absurdly low, shows a lack of interest by the Brazilian government, people, and industry, in the development of science in this country.

No, it shows that the country is poor - the desire to pay higher salaries was always there, but it's hard. People in rich countries think money grows on trees because for them, it kind of does.

And this is why development advice from "intellectuals" in rich countries is worthless.

Comment by rafaelbeirigo 2 hours ago

As a Brazilian, I believe the problem is that we have a culture of "gratitude" towards the government. We quietly and silently thank God that we received whatever benefit and pray that they will keep giving us that. But a tiny bit of economical education, and an open eye to the frequent corruption scandals teaches one that there is more than enough money for a decent salary for academic workers.

Comment by leidenfrost 2 hours ago

The real culprit is the International Division of Labour.

Some countries sell primary goods and other countries manufacture them.

But it turns out it's the manufacturing industry the one that trickles wealth the most, raises salaries and improves education overall.

China knew this. And used all its non-democratic powers to make their country a manufacturing superpower.

A country that only extracts natural resources can't hold a numerous population. And if it does, a big % of them is doomed to a life of misery.

Comment by IAmBroom 34 minutes ago

I read an interesting article once that mentioned, the worst thing that can happen to your country is that it sits on a large supply of rare resources.

You'd think it would make you rich; instead it makes you miners, and ripe for invasion.

Comment by actionfromafar 6 minutes ago

The Resource Curse. It’s not a given, but it’s a dangerous pitfall that must be avoided. England had coal. Norway has oil. If you don’t have strong institutions, someone will take control of it, like modern Russia for instance.

Comment by niemandhier 1 hour ago

A story told from an old school Russian professor about physics at the university of Moscow under Stalin:

It’s exam. The professor enters the room and tells students there will be 3 exams.

One extremely hard all books allowed, it’s either pass with top grade or fail, nothing in between.

One hard, one book allowed, it’s either pass with moderate grade or fail, nothing in between.

One moderate, no book allowed, but if you know the books you can pass, it’s passing grade or fail.

Students are told to sort according to the exam they want to take. Very hard to the right, hard in the middle, moderate to the left.

Once students are sorted the professor says: „ Right pass. Middle come back next year. Left go home, Russia does not need you.“

Comment by seblon 5 hours ago

This problem is not limited to Latin America or physics alone - it also affects regions such as Africa. For example, many students at universities in Senegal, do not find employment after graduating. Some drop out earlier once they realize their prospects are slim, while others try their luck in Western countries.

Comment by Aayush28260 17 hours ago

This resonated with my own experience: exams rewarded recall, not understanding. I only really “earned physics when I started building things and breaking them. Curious how others here learned to move from memorization to intuition.

Comment by WalterBright 7 hours ago

Caltech tests were not based on memorization, as they were "open book open note". You had to reason your way to a solution.

But I do agree that real world physics, like designing an actual electronic circuit, have behaviors that are not modeled by the usual mathematical models. For example, resistors vary widely from their marked resistance. And I was told, when building digital circuits, to make sure it worked with chips faster than the spec, as replacement chips are always faster, never slower.

Comment by IAmBroom 28 minutes ago

> For example, resistors vary widely from their marked resistance

Resistors are sometimes marked with their variance band (+/-1%, for instance) to account for this.

Engineers take these expected variances into account when designing circuits. If your design is sensitive to a 3% variance in resistor value, you'd better not be specifying gold-banded +/-5% lots.

Comment by rramadass 17 hours ago

The problem of teaching physics in Latin America is only part of the wider problem of teaching physics anywhere. In fact, it is part of the problem of teaching anything anywhere – a problem for which there is no known satisfactory solution.

Even though Feynman wrote this based on his experience in Latin America, i think this is true of many (most?) countries even today.

There is no "True Education" anymore, only the appearance of one with the sole aim of churning out a "Productive Worker"(for a certain definition of the term) for a Economy; no understanding required.

It is interesting to interpret how the above is still applicable in the current technological hoopla of AI/LLMs capabilities.

What do the students know that is not easily and directly available in a book? The things that can be looked up in a book are only a part of knowledge. Who wants such a student to work in a plant when a book requiring no food or maintenance stands day after day always ready to give just as adequate answers? Who wants to be such a student, to have worked so hard, to have missed so much of interest and pleasure, and to be outdone by an inanimate printed list of "laws"?

Comment by darubedarob 9 hours ago

But these are not productive workers of the knowwledge economy. These are producers of paper spam, of fraud and ilusion. Innovation in such s world would grind to a halt while their output would clog the system that brought them forth.

Comment by scandox 6 hours ago

Your comment should start with "And" not "But" since you are amplifying the original comment not disagreeing with it...

Comment by AnimalMuppet 20 minutes ago

> There is no "True Education" anymore, only the appearance of one with the sole aim of churning out a "Productive Worker"(for a certain definition of the term) for a Economy; no understanding required.

If I understand correctly, this is not the same problem. The problem Feynman was facing was education where the point was to get a credential, not to become useful. (I agree that neither is the same as to actually learn...)

Comment by throwaway66k1 1 hour ago

G.I Gurdjieff, in Meetings With Remarkable People references the present civilization, where a "The Conversation of the Two Sparrows" concerns the European's scope of wisdom in mathematical knowledge, whereas the Asiatic understands contemporary knowledge "not by knowing but by being."

'In this anecdote it is said that once upon a time on the cornice of a high horse sat two sparrows, one old, the other young.'

'They were discussing an event which had become the "burning question of the day" among the sparrows, and which had resulted from the mullah's housekeeper having just previously thrown out of a window, on to a place where the sparrows gathered to play, something looking like left-over porridge, but which turned out to be chopped cork; and several of the young and yet inexperienced sparrow sat, almost burst.'

'While talking about the old sparrow, suddenly ruffling himself up, began with a pained grimace to search under his wing for the fleas tormenting him, and which in general breed on underfed sparrows; and having caught one, he said with a deep sigh:

'"Times have changed very much -- there is no longer a living to be had for our fraternity.

'"In the old days we used to sit, just as now, somewhere upon a roof, quietly dozing, when suddenly down in the street there would be heard a noise, a rattling and a rumbling, and soon after an odour would be diffused, at which everything inside us would begin to rejoice; because we felt fully certain that when we flew down and searched the places where all that happened, we would find satisfaction for our essential needs.

'"But nowadays there is plenty and to spare of noise and rattlings, and all sorts of rumblings, and again and again an odour is also diffused, but an odour which it is almost impossible to endure; and when sometimes, by force of old habit, we fly down during a moment's lull to seek something substantial for ourselves, then seach as we may with tense attention, we find nothing at all except some nauseous drops of burned oil."

Comment by fl4tul4 8 hours ago

Fast-forward to 2025.

The same problems still exist, exacerbated by the prevalence of LLMs and no detection mechanisms whatsoever.

The recipe for disaster.

Comment by xandrius 3 hours ago

Not to disagree with your point but why does literally any discussion must have a mention of AI/LLMs?

Is it possible not to bring them up and still have a deep conversation?

Comment by fl4tul4 3 hours ago

I guess the whole discussion (in 1963, in 2025), is about 'knowledge acquisition' (or lack thereof). He mentions the Brazilian students memorising 'stuff' without understanding - as a former Brazilian educator, I can tell you that when I was working there in 2010-2020, it hadn't changed, and, to my point, got worse in late years. I think a lot of students care about 'getting a diploma' without actually learning something, but my main concern is about fairness: how could I praise good students from 'devious' students altogether?

Comment by rramadass 2 hours ago

> why does literally any discussion must have a mention of AI/LLMs?

Your sentiment is right but in this case not applicable.

A Teacher who did not really understand what he was teaching can easily have LLMs generate lectures/notes/etc. and pass it along to students without any thought put into it. A Student on his part can simply have LLMs generate answers for all of his problem sets and pass it along to the teacher.

The above would be a disaster for the overall spread of Science in the Society.

Comment by culebron21 5 hours ago

Read this from HN in 2011, was interesting. But I take Feynman's conclusions with the grain of salt, and most comments here are near conspiracy theories. Here's why.

Education in the older epoch that his informers mention, was much smaller in scale. Brazil's illiteracy was at ~65% in 1930, at just <50% by 1960, if I remember correctly. So both common schools and secondary education (college/university) were expanding at the time. And that's the reason.

If you expand education, quality inevitably drops. The lower social strata that are reached by education won't get as good teachers as earlier. You may be able to write good schoolbooks, like mathematicians in the USSR did, but there's still last mile problem, the teacher. Most teachers are not bright enthusiasts, often times they're underpaid and burnt out after ages of teaching. The few enthusiasts and visionaries, are exceptions -- at least this is what I read from one recent study -- and their recipies aren't reproducible.

From what I've read, better universities usually have less students per teacher. This way a teacher can engage better and actually care what the student does. This requires more money poured in the system and less corruption.

(For non-Western countries, money shouldn't be a big problem, they're spending smaller share of GDP on education. But modern beliefs tell that everything should be "efficient", and governments don't want to spend more, instead they insist they need to "digitize" education, and then somehow it will make breakthroughs.)

But also, if you want to play god and pour money from the education ministry into schools or colleges/unis, these streams may actually never reach the file and rank teachers.

Last note: elite school/uni material won't work in lower level ones. I taught in the university where some graduation projects were published in journals for young researchers, and teachers were publishing in not top ranking, but high ranking serious ones. Some courses included work on good older papers (in English, a foreign language).

There, you could easily dismiss students who just want a grade and a degree as noise.

But take a city further from the capitals -- even in good college students will struggle and not able to process it. Not because further on the periphery people are dumber -- simply because most brightest students went to the best unis in the capitals.

In the elites, it's easy to argue to shrink education to keep only the bright guys, like in the XIX century. Well, it doesn't work this way -- you need to educate lots of people to find more bright ones.

So, who, what and how will teach those less bright guys? A big open question to me.

Comment by Gravityloss 3 hours ago

There have always existed levels, some better functioning mechanisms than others.

I think it varies a lot from even year to year. For the same course, some teacher might be really optimistic and produces little explanations and tests with very hard problems, while next year there's a teacher who is very good at explaining issues and the tests are a bit less "gotcha" like. Even a single teaching assistant or a friend explaining some key concept in a way it clicks for the student can make a huge difference.

Or maybe you have different formal levels, ie university, technical school, so on, these vary by country and don't have full 1:1 mapping to each other. These also evolve over time.

Or inside one university, you have various levels. Some departments might be small and really hard to get to, either via exams, or proof of previous study ability like high grades. And there then you can expect more from the students.

So one big issue is to get the people sorted into the right places. Also if a person's performance or preference changes over time, they should be able to switch.

Comment by 1 hour ago

Comment by tomhow 8 hours ago

Previously:

Richard Feynman on education in Brazil - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2483976 - April 2011 (73 comments)

Comment by 11 hours ago